Author Topic: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.  (Read 15217 times)

Offline Clawhammer

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A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« on: July 10, 2008, 11:22:00 AM »
Something that I need to write down: :)

Joat: Journal of Applied Treknology.

What does it mean for me?
For me it means visiting it to see the new entries, be inspired, see what others create. I dont care about the medium, if it's pencil drawings, pixel art, paint, photoshop, or some 3D render, you could even carve it out of a patato.... I could not care less. That's now what artwork is about, it's about feeling, linking images together to evolve one step further in a design that was already in my head but just not complete. If we would transfer the rules that are currently applied to the JOAT onto the Louvre, they could close down 3 wings.

In my opinion a design that is reasonable sound in it's shape and it's backstory should be on there. I dont visit the JOAT to look at flashy CGI stuff, I can just move to scifimeshes.com for that and have a ton of fully prepped fully detailed ships that leave exactly NOTHING over to your imagination. They are good, yes very good, but they are a bad source for inspiration. It will probably result in duplication. That's why the JOAT is UNIQUE

Judging "artwork" is almost impossible, it's too personal. I think submitted ships should be judged on the specs and their basic shape. Judging based on "quality" is not a good idea. People loose interest as they are afraid they wont live up to the standard. That means inspiration is thrown in a bin.
1 rule will make sure that you dont become a second Shipsschematics.net. "No kitbashes unless they are from Guidomc." :D

Well that's quite a relief. :) Thanks for reading!

Offline CX

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 03:53:43 PM »
I must have missed something.  Since when are there such stringent standards?  ??? I mean, my own designs that I submitted around the time JoAT just got started are basically just pencil sketches.  Would they no longer be accepted had I waited until now to submit them?
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Offline Bernd

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 04:21:20 PM »
It was the original idea to accept any kind of artwork, and not to make it another club of 3D artists. So initially I went ahead and I added all kinds of stuff that was sent to me. The problem is that while once in a while something truly original and perhaps well-crafted is submitted, the bulk of all submissions is crap, with an increasing tendency. You only see the tip of the iceberg on the site.

Most of the stuff falls into the following categories:
http://www.treknology.org/bad_design.htm

No images: 25% (although explicitly and repeatedly mentioned as a requirement)
Rip-offs: 10% (i.e. images of canon designs or stolen fan-made ships)
Pointless kitbashes: 5% (mostly three nacelles)
Overblown design: 10%
Lacking drawing quality: 15% (actually I made up an example that is still better than most stuff that we discard right away)
MS Paint patchwork: 5%

The remaining 30% comprises the designs that are original or have a certain quality (and ideally both). In other words, anything that has a certain potential.

Sure, BorgMan's comment may have discouraged Capt Christopher Donovan. He did some promising stuff, and it wouldn't have been the worst to be posted at the JoAT. Maybe we have raised the bar too high lately. But to be blunt, many designers are not very reasonable, they won't listen if everyone finds their design absurd or, while they agree it looks like crap they still do not want to put any efforts in the improvements of their drawings.

Agreed, the rules may deter some people who have something interesting they don't dare to send in the first place. But they save us endless discussions. In order to really encourage submissions from self-conscious people, we would have to drop pretty much all rules except for very basic ones (no überships, only with images, no plagiarism, etc.).

People can still submit all kinds of "primitive" artwork like pencil drawings or Paint pictures (if they are ready to work on it for more than just two minutes). I don't want to turn this into an elitist club. And this certainly wasn't BorgMan's intention either.

Finally, the JoAT is a gallery, rather than a workbench. It's true, some visitors may just seek inspiration. But to many it is a disappointment when they click on a thumbnail, and the picture is not more detailed than the thumbnail. More than once visitors have complained to me about lacking quality.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 04:52:12 AM by Bernd »

Offline The Daft Punk

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 04:23:13 PM »
Can we have a "Hall of Shame", where you post the most egregiously bad designs? Maybe the top five in each bad design category.
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Offline BorgMan

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 04:50:16 PM »
We have thought about that TDP, but felt that it wasn't fair towards the people who made that designs...

And indeed, it wasn't my intention of setting up an elitist club. As I already have pointed out, we have Paint users in here too, but what they do with it is so cool that it deserves to be showcased.
*Doorbell Sound*

 "Hi, I am Elder 14 of 37 and this is my traveling companion Sister 29 of 128. We represent the Borg..."
"Oh Roddenbery, you guys again? Look, it's 8 in the morning and I don't have time for you OK? I told you last week..."
"But... Assimilation... Holopamflet!"
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Offline Bernd

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2008, 05:02:51 PM »
Can we have a "Hall of Shame", where you post the most egregiously bad designs? Maybe the top five in each bad design category.

No. It's our policy not to turn things that people have sent us in good faith into gag reels.

And I couldn't agree more with BorgMan. I like some Paint artwork at the JoAT more than some fully fledged 3D designs.

Offline Bond, James Bond

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2008, 03:18:57 AM »
When Captain Christopher Donovan first posted in JoAT and his design wasn't accepted, I was a little baffled as well and we discussed it in the mod forum. I thought the multiple designs with several views and good design histories made up for the fact that the textures were a little primitive looking. I thought it would have made a nice addition to the DY section of JoAT.

That being said, I think his whole attitude about it and the way he handled things was wrong. So, his design didn't get accepted to JoAT in its present form, pouting about it and not accepting constructive criticism isn't the way to go then. Either make your case for its inclusion or try to improve on it. Leaving the board over it with the standard "It's your fault I'm leaving" post (albeit much more polite than usual) is a bit childish. Amazingly, you're actually capable of leaving a board without posting something first.

Anyway, I still think it would have been worthy of inclusion simply for the amount of work put into it, regardless of the quality of the textures used on the hulls and the blockiness of the designs - which were a product of the software he was using.

Offline Clawhammer

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2008, 05:27:13 AM »
Thanks for the repsonse guys!

First of all: I seriously appriciate the amount of work Bernd and Borgman are putting in moderating and looking over all of the Joat submissions. It however did draw my attention because in Donovan's case it wasnt the worst stuff I have seen within the Joat. I know that the rules have been sharpened to increase quality, but just dont pull them too tight! :)

I must also admit it would not be my style either to start a topic to say "I'm leaving unhappy". Over the years I have learned to deal with critism, it is not always easy, but I never felt insulted here on SCN. So perhaps some people just have very short fuses? :)
It kind of worried me because he was the second guy in A&D leaving. (the other one for a debate within a politics topic however.) :)

Thanks for clearing it up!



Offline Rick King AIFD

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2008, 07:48:15 PM »
Look at the Davinci Class testbed design I did - It WAS ACCEPTED into Joat. Bernd approved it. Additionally, by virtue of winning the Interior Design competiton with the "Adult Entertainment Complex", that design was accepted into Joat - however, those two designs have not yet made it onto the site.

The reason for that is simply that the rendering quality of Sketchup is not the best. Therefore, the simple fact that it is not a high level a renderer as 3D-Max or a Cad program and the resuults from Sketchup are not a super-high quality......compared with your work Claw - the Sketchup designs are almost caveman primitive. As of right now.....until I can increse the power, processor speed, and RAM of my desktop..........I am stuck at this level. It is just way too hard to try and do any kind of rendering on my laptop.....takes better eyes and more hands than this 45 year old man has.

I am in the process of slowly, but surely trying to re-do the testbed submission into a more pleasing higher quality work.

Even as I pointed out to Donovan - the work was good, but for my personal taste and I think for the Joat - it was a little too polygonal......perfectly designed for gaming ...... but his circle had like twelve sides.....whereas a sketchup circle has 180 to 240 sides.....vast difference in the way they appear and render.....of course, with your skills, you know this. Shoot, I hope that one of these days I achieve a tenth of the level of skills you have my friend.

My kind of rambling point being this.......Even in the Joat - There is room for improvement.

Look how much Drake Zure got bawled out for the tremor class submission........besides it just being a poor design concept......the quality of artwork was such that it was Joat quality.....and Drake did not want to "upgrade" the level to that point of being acceptable quality.

Yes, I have two designs that were accepted into Joat.......when they eventually, reach the quality of work that Joat stands for and represents.....they'll find their way in there.

........If I have failed, then I have failed while daring greatly, henceforth my place shall never be found amoung those timid souls who know not the thrill of victory or bitter defeat....

Offline Commodore Horton

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2008, 10:02:07 PM »
Before I found SCN, I had stumbled upon EAS, and in between EAS and SCN, I found JoaT. To me, JoaT was the pinacle of fan designed ships. They were THE BEST of THE BEST. Not neccisarily in skill involved in the design's creations, but more upon the creativity, and ingenuity in tackling the design challenge. I readily accepted it as an elite site, not only because of the very consistent quality of works in it, but because it was added upon rarely. I worked for nearly four months trying to get my designs,  :-Xskillfully :-X crafted in MS Paint, onto the site. Not surprisingly, at least in retrospect, they didn't make it.

I should note that I used Bernd's designs as a basis for the majority of my early ones. Earlier still, I had run across several of the early POC paint drawings at a now defunct website, and had suspected that they were made by the same person. When I stumbled across EAS, I recognized the much better renders of them, and was hooked. For a while, I tried to emulate them, which explains some of my hesitancy to switch to Sketchup.

Now I know that some designs presently at JoaT are below par, but those were, as I understand it, from the very begginnings of the site. And I understand that some persons at SCN believe that maybe, maybe the bar's been raised too far, too high, too fast.

To which I respond with the short sweet answer NO. As I've always believed, JoaT should be somewhat elitist. It is meant, as I understand it, to showcase the best of the best of the best. Sort of like the scoring for the Olympics, actually. You may get a 9 out of ten, but if the other guy gets 9.2 of 10, you've got to get an extra .3 from somewhere to get the gold.

Perhaps to apease those that find these standards to exacting, some sort of return form should be mailed to all who submit, ranking the design in all aspects, ie drawing quality, concept, backstory, specifications, etc. Rated say, 0 to 5, it could help alot of people tweak their designs up to the bar, and beyond.
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Offline BorgMan

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 03:55:45 AM »
Hmm... I made a habit out of it back then to send an email back to a person who's design wasn't accepted, with a reason why. It took me too much work so I stopped with it, but when I have the time I could start sending mails again I guess...
*Doorbell Sound*

 "Hi, I am Elder 14 of 37 and this is my traveling companion Sister 29 of 128. We represent the Borg..."
"Oh Roddenbery, you guys again? Look, it's 8 in the morning and I don't have time for you OK? I told you last week..."
"But... Assimilation... Holopamflet!"
"Yeah right, you can leave it here but I'll throw it on the rest of the bunch I got from your other 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Now scram before I call the 8472 Squad!"

Offline caisson2delta

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 04:48:49 AM »
Competition, or comparison I should say, is one of the things that inspired me when I was younger, and still to this day to improve on my physical modeling skills. I think the higher the bar, the more it pushes those with the interest and drive to improve. Not everyone is at the same level but practice, practice, and more practice should be able to gradually make an artist improve. I have been building, detailing, and criticizing my own plastic models for the past thirty years; it's the only way to improve. Yes, it may be very frustrating to see, what may be in one person's opinion "perfect" and not be there yet.
This need to emulate what I thought was perfection pushed me to the next level and to look for even more aspects to improve on. Even after all these years of doing my craft, I still make mistakes and learn from them. That's the only way to improve. If they came out perfect every time and didn't find anything to improve my skills with, what would be the point?

Offline BorgMan

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 05:08:35 PM »
Amen to that ;)

I'm doubling back a little: JoAT isn't meant to be an elitist club of 3D modellers; as CH pointed out, there are a lot of other sites that serve that function quite well. What I do think, however, as Horton states it, is that JoAT is some kind of elitist club: get your design in JoAT, and it means you've accomplished something. In that light, it's an elitist designer club, a site which shows the world what can be done with all the materials availlable; not just 3D modelling tools or vector programs, but stuff like Paint and physical modelling as well. I think that is what makes JoAT special :)
*Doorbell Sound*

 "Hi, I am Elder 14 of 37 and this is my traveling companion Sister 29 of 128. We represent the Borg..."
"Oh Roddenbery, you guys again? Look, it's 8 in the morning and I don't have time for you OK? I told you last week..."
"But... Assimilation... Holopamflet!"
"Yeah right, you can leave it here but I'll throw it on the rest of the bunch I got from your other 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Now scram before I call the 8472 Squad!"

Offline Commodore Horton

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 05:47:24 PM »
Amen to that ;)

I'm doubling back a little: JoAT isn't meant to be an elitist club of 3D modellers; as CH pointed out, there are a lot of other sites that serve that function quite well. What I do think, however, as Horton states it, is that JoAT is some kind of elitist club: get your design in JoAT, and it means you've accomplished something. In that light, it's an elitist designer club, a site which shows the world what can be done with all the materials availlable; not just 3D modelling tools or vector programs, but stuff like Paint and physical modelling as well. I think that is what makes JoAT special :)

Exactly.
Nos Vadum Triumphus

Offline Tyburn

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 05:00:39 PM »
Well thanks for putting my Phazooka up, I will (someday when I'm not spending 4 hours heading to and from work each day) do a better version.

BTW, how the heck do I change my name on that to my screen name?
I'm getting to that stage in life where I want to find a nice little place, settle down and spend my declining days on my porch, shitting in my hand and throwing it at passing cars. Is that too much to ask?

Offline BorgMan

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2008, 02:12:13 AM »
Well... You should've done so during the submission of the piece ;) But I'm sure it can be done if you ask Bernd nicely :D
*Doorbell Sound*

 "Hi, I am Elder 14 of 37 and this is my traveling companion Sister 29 of 128. We represent the Borg..."
"Oh Roddenbery, you guys again? Look, it's 8 in the morning and I don't have time for you OK? I told you last week..."
"But... Assimilation... Holopamflet!"
"Yeah right, you can leave it here but I'll throw it on the rest of the bunch I got from your other 'brothers' and 'sisters'. Now scram before I call the 8472 Squad!"

Offline Bernd

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Re: A complaint from your Cardassian neighbour.
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2008, 11:01:46 AM »
I have changed the credits.
http://www.treknology.org/tactical.htm