Author Topic: Post your theories here!  (Read 6987 times)

Offline jangoisbaddest

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Post your theories here!
« on: September 18, 2008, 07:44:16 PM »
If you'll indulge me, I'm basically new here, and I've been watching BSG since the beginning. I recently re-watched the entire series in order to try and solve all the big questions. Of course, I probably haven't, but I do have some interesting observations (mostly regarding symbolism) that may in fact prove vital to the endgame. You can find it here:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3960052&postcount=6

Comments, arguments, anything is welcome! Hopefully this will at least spark some conversation.  :)

Offline Jimi James

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Re: Post your theories here!
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 07:21:57 AM »
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Offline jangoisbaddest

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Re: Post your theories here!
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2008, 02:35:39 PM »
Very well, here it is on this thread:

BSG: My theory (I know, all of this has happened before :P)

This may be totally off, but should spark some interesting discussion at least. Before getting into the theory I believe most credible, let’s look at the huge prophetic monologue from the hybrid in “Razor” to establish a few things:

At last, they’ve come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough.

So from his place in the timeline, New Caprica hasn’t happened yet. This could be a literal reference to those events (the one true path being finding Earth rather than settling on this planet). This could also, however, refer to their religious beliefs or something even more cryptic. Regardless, it's not the main point of my citing this passage.

Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, the pain of revelation bringing new clarity.

Our four cylons revealed at the tail end of season 3. Interesting that he knows this, despite it being before that in the plot line (chronologically). This seems to indicate for certain that he sees the “patterns” in history, similar to Leoben, which will be discussed later.

and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined. The way forward once unthinkable, yet inevitable.

In hindsight, we can see that this probably refers to Kara and Leoben from “The Road Less Travelled,” as this lead to an eventual alliance with a cylon faction. This seems to indicate that war and peace are part of the cycle, and that piece is unthinkable at this point, yet inevitable because it’s part of the cycle.

And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering.

A final cylon clue, but it’s really not what I’m going to discuss here.

I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin, but in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many, and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning.

Once again, hindsight tells us that a cylon civil war will break out, which is obviously what he’s talking about. The section, however, after “into the many” is the key of this whole monologue. The “promised land” and “angel” in question are going to be huge players in the final moments of the show, because they set the cycle up for the next iteration.
Another interesting point is that they are “self-described” machines. Are they REALLY machines? Or do they simply THINK they are? Remember, there aren’t a whole lot of differences between advanced cylon models and humans. Anyway, that was a tangent, and would be difficult to explain away. Onto the theory.

Rivers and Streams

This basically says that reality isn’t what it seams – that the “promised land” is actually only accessible by dying. This can mean either heaven (lame) or some fraked-up twist that will turn reality on its head Rod Sterling style (awesome). It’s very open-ended; maybe they’re in a matrix-style setup right now. Whatever they find after death will complete the picture. Now this is not a new theory, but I’ve found an overwhelming number of little hints that coincide with it after watching the show over again (as I wait…and wait, and wait for new episodes). Let’s start from the beginning.
“Flesh And Bone” from season 1 was basically where all this spiritual mumbo-jumbo started, and there are some very interesting things that are there for those who are paying attention. It is obvious that Leoben seems to have a better understanding of this situation, perhaps even the answers himself. Let’s take a look at some of the shtuff he says.

To know the face of God is to know madness. I see the universe. I see the past. I see the foreshadowing that precedes every moment of every day. It's all there. I see it and you don't. And I have a surprise for you. I have something to tell you about the future. But we have to see this through to the end {crop] I told you I had a surprise for you. Are you ready? You’re gonna find Kobol, birthplace of us all. Kobol will lead you to Earth. This is my gift to you, Kara.

There’s a chance that he is just playing off of scripture, but for the sake of this theory, we’re going to assume that he can indeed see the future (because that’s exactly what has happened, and he seems to be wanting to genuinely help her throughout the show). Also note that his monologue about Kara’s mother was repeated in a later episode, and was also quite accurate (as the oracle said, Kara told nobody about that). He can indeed see patterns that others do not see, it seems.

All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again. You kneel before idols and ask for guidance and you can't see that your destiny's already been written. Each of us plays a role, each time a different role. Maybe last time I was the interrogator and you were the prisoner. The players change; the story remains the same.

Here’s a reference to the frequently stated cycle of time. Not only that, it appears that everyone has a destiny and “role.”

What is the most basic article of faith? This is not all that we are. See, the difference between you and me is that I know what that means and you don't. I know that I'm more than this body, more than this consciousness. A part of me swims in the stream, but in truth, I'm standing on the shore. The current never takes me downstream.

The theme of “this is not all that we are” is another recurring one, echoed by the same character in season 4.

But the really interesting thing about this is the “stream,” echoed in season 4 not even by him, but by Baltar - a completely different character. Let’s skip ahead to the season 4 episode to which I am referring, called “Faith.” What do you notice about the ferry that takes Emily across the “river” that “separates this world from the next,” according to Baltar?:



Hm, 9, 10, 11, and 12. Let’s check the numbers on our known cylon models (and since we know there are indeed 12 models, we can stop the list there):

1 – Cavil
2 – Leoben
3 – D’Anna
4 – Simon
5 – Doral
6 – Caprica/Shelly/Natalie/Gods know what else
7 – Unknown
8 – Sharon
9, 10, 11, 12 – Unknown

There’s an interesting coincidence. If we assume 7 is the final cylon, that means that four of the final five (the “four, glorious in awakening”) are represented symbolically in this sequence, either as guiding the ferry or the ferry itself. This is further supported by the following….

Remember this line from the same episode from Emily, as she recalls what happened in her dream?:

And I heared a voice…it said, “don’t be scared, Emily. I’m with you.”

And now Ander’s line in the same episode, one of the “four, glorious in awakening,” as he kneels upon an 8 who is very near death and dies shortly afterward:

It’s okay. I’m with you.

It seems to me that the final five have their purpose or “role” defined: to guide souls from this world into the next, across the stream.

Getting back to the stream, Baltar says it’s the stream that “separates this world from the next.” Now, I’m prepared to make the leap that says this is the “space between life and death,” as quoted by head Leoben in “Maelstrom,” because of what Leoben the cylon says in Flesh and Bone:

A part of me swims in the stream, but in truth, I'm standing on the shore. The current never takes me downstream.

He is a cylon. What do cylons do? They resurrect. They don’t die, and therefore cannot traverse the “river” and arrive at the “other realm.” He’s also partially swimming in the stream because he DOES die many times over….just never completes the journey, or allows the current to take him downstream due to resurrection.

Now, remember Kara’s role as the “harbinger of death?” It seems well-established since “Guess What’s Coming to Dinner” that this means she was responsible for finding the rebels and in turn allowing them to combine forces to destroy the resurrection hub, wiping out the ability for EVERYONE to resurrect. “Harbinger of death” is now not as ominous and foreboding, as this simply means that cylons can now cross the river like humans can, into the other realm.

And now, what happened to Starbuck? Simple. She died. What is it that Leoben told her in her dream sequence in “Maelstrom?”

You saw the Mandala in the Clouds, but you didn’t tell anyone. Because you’re drawn to it. You want to fly into it, to cross over. But you’re afraid [crop] of the unknown. Of death.

The mandala has been seen in many different manifestations, which have actually been strung together in recaps to suggest a broader symbolic meaning:



This is a pic of the nova, which the Chief (one of the four) points out is, in fact, the Eye of Jupiter. It could be seen overlooking the temple on the surface as well. Not only that, the apparatus that allowed D’Anna the clarity to see the final five was, in fact, a mandala:



By stepping onto it, she had a vision in which she saw the final five. Then, one of them raised their arm in what could be interpreted as guidance:



She takes it, and is dead soon after. But of course, since she can resurrect, she wasn’t able to go completely downstream, and instead gave the fleet the final five in “Revelations” as a result of what she saw.

This is not a new thing. She’s been trying to figure out who the final five are all through the first half of season 3. She was constantly killing herself because she thought she could see them, but never clearly enough to remember after resurrection. This could be because she was not able to complete the journey, again because of cylon resurrection.

In any case, another manifestation is Starbuck’s vision in the storm, which eventually she flew into in order to kill herself:



Not to mention her paintings in her apartment, seen as far back as “Valley of Darkness” in season 2, and even in her childhood artwork:



My interpretation of this symbol is, quite simply, death. As opposed to the journey to the next realm that is the stream, the mandala symbolizes crossing over from life into the arms of the final five, in the “space between life and death,” as Head Leoben describes Kara’s next “step” in “Maelstrom.” This space is obviously where D’Anna was when she kept killing herself to see who the Final Five were, and when she finally saw them but was interrupted by Baltar. Think about it – every time we see this thing, death is associated with it: a supernova that obliterates a system, a storm system that Kara has been trained to kill herself in, and a spot inside a temple in which someone standing there is killed. And since the “Eye of Jupiter” is supposed to be a road sign, it might simply be saying “follow Kara’s example for what you seek.”


The episode called “Maelstrom” basically had Kara preparing to commit suicide, to cross over to the next realm. This episode dealt heavily with her mother, who abused her and tried to toughen her up to “be a warrior” because she was “special.” Starbuck specifically states in one of her dream sequences that “something is about to happen [meaning her imminent demise]. You know that thing you were trying to prepare me for? I don’t know if I can do it.” Her mother tells her that she can. Her mother was training her to commit suicide. In line with this theory, she was a sort of “scout” for everyone. She crossed the river and came back, letting everyone know that it’s really OK to die. Obviously this changed her, as she spent two months in this “other realm” and undoubtedly saw or began to understand some wacky frakin things. Also, take a look at the tattoos on her arm:



Wings and an angelic symbolism have been tied to Starbuck in more than one way. She is also portrayed in “Maelstrom” as Aurora, Goddess of the Dawn, who “brings a morning star and a fair wind…a fresh start.” This role is again given symbolism in the form of the figurehead for Adama’s model ship, which she gave him after the oracle hinted that she should take it:



The Harbinger of Death title is still open to interpretation, and indeed can be multi-faceted. If that is a literal meaning and not dealing with pure humans mating themselves into a hybrid race, then she might convince everyone to die (or force them to) in some manner, thereby leading everyone to the promised land. Remember how the hybrid in Razor said that they would be “gathered on the wings of an angel?” Not only is this indicative of her role, but Leoben actually calls her “an angel, blazing with the light of god, eager to lead her people home” during the episode “The Road Less Travelled,” after she returned to the fleet. It seems obvious that this is our “angel” from the hybrid’s prophecy, as she has been to the “promised land” and also will “lead the human race to its end” in its most literal sense in order to reach the promised land.

Considering that she has traversed the river both ways, and that she seems to share an angelic sort of image with the other four, it seems to be pointing the finger as her being the final cylon. She is set apart from the other four (as the four seem to be different than the final one) because she will be the one to actually be the catalyst for the four’s duties. In addition, she was not in the fleet when the four were drawn to the gym in Crossroads II, therefore explaining her absence. This is also supported when, in Maelstrom, the Temple of Five theme (which represents the final five) can be heard accompanying her in her dream sequence which allows her to come to terms with her destiny:



(taken from Bear’s Battlestar Blog)

This theme is also heard when the hybrid looks affectionately at Starbuck and tells her that she is the Harbinger of Death. Those are the only two places I’ve heard it other than when they actually find the temple and when D’Anna sees the Five, which is compelling. This may, of course, just be a red herring – she may just be a human messenger, and Bear many not have known at that point anyway. There really is no unequivocal evidence for any of this, you know. :P

And of course, the fact that the hybrid didn’t seem to be bothered by Kara’s role seems to strengthen my theory that there is something after death that is not so bad.



(This image is to demonstrate her happiness, but mostly is here because Hybrids are awesome)
Hybrids, after all, are unquestionably clairvoyant. There are also numerous references in the show of dying people seeing something as they are slipping away from life, such as Natalie in “Sine Qua Non”:



We get this split-second clip of a forest that she appears to see just before she dies. This may be cylon projection (the ability to perceive the world around them however they choose), but there are many other hints that indicate something there as people are dying. As Anders says in “Faith,” regarding the dying 8: She’s looking past us. I’ve seen that look many times, but never in the eyes of a Cylon. Obviously, he saw a lot of his friends die in both resistance movements in the show. He knows what he’s talking about, and has seen it repeatedly. There seems to be a growing amount of evidence that there is something after death after all. From the looks of the forest that Natalie sees, it really doesn’t look so bad. It looks like what everyone was expecting on Earth, rather than the nuclear wasteland they found instead.

Another interesting connection is when D’Anna says, just before dying after seeing the faces of the Final Five, “so…beautiful.” She also says, after killing herself and resurrecting one of numerous times before that, “this is something beautiful.” That forest looks kinda pretty to me. And if the Final Five were trying to guide her there, it is possible she caught some glimpses of it before resurrecting. Also, the Razor hybrid’s words state, “…join together in the promised land. Not an end, but a beginning.” Generally, we think of death as an end. But in this case, there is more after death. Otherwise that last sentence would be pointless (we get the cycle of time reference a lot – it’s a given). The promised land is in death, which means death is not an end after all, but a beginning. This sentence seems to be designed to break a preconception, and death is notoriously considered an end.

Now of course, I still haven’t addressed the other big picture, the Opera House and its role in Hera’s destiny. It seems that they are destined to go off together, and according to “head six,” Hera will be the “next generation of God’s children.” This could be the beginning of the next iteration of the cycle of time, meaning that Baltar, Six, and Hera will be the only ones NOT killed off. Instead, they will propagate a new race that will inhabit Kobol, Gods and Men will live there in harmony until an exodus of thirteen tribes, and the whole damn thing will start over again. This of course basically makes everyone a hybrid, including (possibly) ourselves, the thirteenth tribe of “man” on Earth. We are indistinguishable from our technological achievements – which is one of the major themes of this show.



The closing doors during the opera house sequence seemed to indicate that Athena and Roslin could not follow, which in the context of this theory, means that they will die and reach the promised land, as opposed to those three. They will continue the cycle while Roslin will “know the truth of the opera house.” She’ll know because she will be dead and in the other realm, which will presumably have some answers. The only problem with that is that Leoben says “she [Kara] will lead us to the end. We will not know the truth of the opera house.” That seems to suggest that everyone who died still won’t know, and only Roslin will. That doesn’t make much sense. Why would only Roslin know if damn near everyone is there with her? Also, how could she see Emily’s crossing and her own when she wasn’t “in the space between life and death” – in other words, when she wasn’t dying? It may become clearer as we watch new episodes, as she may possess some wacky power (she did sense the power outage before it actually came). Or my theory may be shot to hell.

So there are my predictions and theories about all this crap. This is by no means a complete picture, or a correct assessment, necessarily; just some observations and a theory that happens to fit the hints and facts pretty well. The spiritual feel of this theory doesn’t really bother me; it all depends on how they choose to explain the rest of it. As I said, maybe some awesome scifi twist will make all the spiritual themes and symbolism indicate something grounded in reality and hard fact. And of course, there are many other hints that whatever they find will indicate a reversal or twist of some kind. There are tons of these scattered around the show, such as this line from one of Adama’s books: All that we are, all that we think we are….all that we are certain about is taken away from us. What is this “other realm,” and what does it mean in the grand scheme of things? Why the hell is Roslin so special to know the truth when everyone else doesn’t? And what is this truth?

Oh, and who else wants to see Adama go out by cold-staring the DRADIS down as he plunges Galactica into the last Cylon Basestar whilst detonating all of his nukes?

Happy waiting and theorizing.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 04:24:13 PM by jangoisbaddest »

Offline jangoisbaddest

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Re: Post your theories here!
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 03:06:22 PM »
So....any thoughts?  ;D

Offline jangoisbaddest

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Re: Post your theories here!
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 12:06:51 AM »
In case anyone didn't know about this:

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/

More clues. Some that are even from un-aired episodes. Combine this with the new trailer, and I think my origional prediction that the final five are simply guides is not quite....active enough in description. Looks like they may well be the catalysts of doom for the human race.

Man, I think everyone is focusing on the wrong thing here. Who frakin cares who the fifth is? There are fifty other things that require answers, and many of them will tie together somehow. I'm having fun trying to sort that out. Is nobody else?