Author Topic: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)  (Read 8494 times)

Offline Jimi James

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BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« on: January 30, 2009, 10:20:27 PM »
Whoa....I mean...wow....I mean WTF?

Awesome to see Starbuck almost back to her old self and just being badass.  I actually yelled out loud when she showed up on the flight deck and popped those Marines.

Too bad about Racetrack.  I rather liked her.

I was surprised they actually killed as many people as they did, rather then either trying to take the ship as non-violently as possible or simply not showing as much of the actual fighting.  Granted they didn't off any main characters, but still. 

It was a nice touch bringing up the crew from Pegasus to show that many of them are still holding a grudge.  No doubt, a bulk of the insurgents are former Pegasus crew.

I also liked that they managed to give Tyrol a bit of redemption by helping out Roslin and Adama.

The teaser for next week....Come on sci-fi, don't do that to us.  Do they even understand the concept of a teaser?
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Offline Flagg

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 10:26:41 PM »
I'M COMING FOR ALL OF YOU!

Offline Alexzandyr

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 11:01:59 PM »
Wow, that was badass.

As for the teaser, you never know. I don't know if they would actually go through with it, could just be a bluff that backfires or it could be stopped in time. Frankly as much as it would upset me I do hope they do it...because I want to see Roslin go fucking crazy and kill them all with her bare hands.

Offline Jimi James

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 11:11:22 PM »
Yeah, part of my doesn't want to see Adama and Tigh get wacked, but the other part hopes they don't cop out and find some convoluted way to have them survive.
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Offline Alexzandyr

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 11:18:02 PM »
I think ultimately this is going to end up with Galactica destroyed, because honestly with what we heard and saw...I don't see them being able to retake the ship. And with it in the hands of these rebels its just a short step before they starting turning her guns against any civie ship that doesn't want to fall in line.

And ya know, its all Roslins fault. If she hadn't of thrown her pitty party and actually done her job, they would have never had this problem.

Then again that's one of the things that is bothering me about this season. More so than we've ever seen the humans just aren't making sense. They finally find Earth only for it to be destroyed, and their reaction is to lash out against the people who HELPED THEM FIND IT! Then to bitch about cylons being on their ships to install BETTER FTL drives that could help them find some kind of home before they run out of supplies...get the frak over it already. Besides how many times does it have to be told to them that the cylons that were the final five aren't the same as the other cylons.

Speaking of, what are they going to do with the whole Ellen is the final cylon thing...that's gotta come up somewhere at some point. I mean there was so much build up to it that we need some kind of pay off, and I vaguely recall reading an article that said she might very well be back but they wouldn't say for sure.

AH I CANT WAIT A WEEK!

Offline CX

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 11:22:42 PM »
I also liked that they managed to give Tyrol a bit of redemption by helping out Roslin and Adama.
What did he do to need it?  ???

Geata is a dead man.  And I really hope they don't blow up the ship, and that neither Adama or Tigh are dead.
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Offline CX

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 11:45:03 PM »
How much do you bet Hot Dog is going to save the day?
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Offline mark

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2009, 12:12:15 AM »
The teaser for next week....Come on sci-fi, don't do that to us.  Do they even understand the concept of a teaser?

When I saw it they didn't even wait for a commercial break before putting the preview in. It was just: grenade, to be continued, and then you-know-who showing up again in the preview without any apparent scratch.
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Offline Jimi James

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2009, 12:14:11 AM »
I also liked that they managed to give Tyrol a bit of redemption by helping out Roslin and Adama.
What did he do to need it?  ???

It goes back to earlier in the season when Tyrol faced down Adama and was removed from his position as deck chief.  It put a rift between them and some other man, say if it had been Tigh or maybe even Lee, they might have held it against him, but Adama is a big enough to be able to respect a person for doing the right thing and showing some loyalty, even if they might have had some problem in the past.  Perhaps 'redemption' is the best way to explain it, but it was a nice moment with Adama acknowledging his involvement, as if to say "whatever happened in the past is in the past."  

Like Tyrol said to Lee, "the old man deserves better then what they'll do to him."  He still has some respect for Adama and it was cool to see him show it.

I'm watching it again.  I love Tigh's line before Gaeta makes his move:  "What do they got down there, a forest fire?  Where the frack are my damage reports?"

Man, the ghostly sound of gunfire and people screaming over the intercom, is a bit disturbing.

Love the scene of Adama and Tigh overpowering their guards.

Then again that's one of the things that is bothering me about this season. More so than we've ever seen the humans just aren't making sense. They finally find Earth only for it to be destroyed, and their reaction is to lash out against the people who HELPED THEM FIND IT! Then to bitch about cylons being on their ships to install BETTER FTL drives that could help them find some kind of home before they run out of supplies...get the frak over it already. Besides how many times does it have to be told to them that the cylons that were the final five aren't the same as the other cylons.

I think ideally, if everyone was behaving logically and not acting on emotion, that the benefit of Cylon FTL's would be apparent as well as everything else that is going on.  Hate is a powerful motivator though, not to mention that everyone is still reeling over having their best hope for a new home utterly crushed.  They've spent years with a single driving force of finding earth and now that they have, the crushing reality of what they've found is just too much to bare.  Everyone has gone beyond whatever threshold they might have previously had in their ability to adapt to a new situation and keep on going day after day.  There's only so far you can push someone before they're going to break, Dee, or push back, Gaeta.

I think that if they had still been looking for Earth and the prospect of Cylon FTL's had come up, then it would have been an easy sale. (In fact we saw that to some degree when Kara led the team to jump back to Caprica using a Cylon raider to rescue survivors.)  But now, there's nothing left.  There's no guarantee that they'll ever find a new home....nothing to unite them and because of that, all of the worst parts of human nature are coming to the surface.

Roslin has given up.  Dee put a bullet in her head.  Zarek has gone from a mere revolutionary to a power hungry politician.  And of course now we see Gaeta willing to give up everything he spent years working for, betraying his friends and fellow crew because he's filled with hate at his terrible lot in life and all the bad things that have happened to him.

The show has always been about how far you could pus these people and how they would react when they were pushed to the edge, day after day.  Up till now, they had something to work towards, a new home on Earth.  The difference now is that there's nothing but 'maybe they might find a planet if they work with the people that wiped out their civilization.'  And that is too much to ask of some of them and they're responding in kind.

How much do you bet Hot Dog is going to save the day?

I wouldn't go so far as to say he'll save the day, but they did sort of leave him hanging there.  So they either had to cut out some additional scene explaining what happened to him (very likely because BSG episodes always run long) or he's going to play some part in the next episode and his part was left opening to keep us guessing.  

A similar sentiment could be made for Athena, Helo, Caprica, and Anders who were shown in the beginning but then we never saw them again.  As well as Kara, Lee, and Tyrol who scurried off back through that whole in the wall.
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Offline Bond, James Bond

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 03:18:11 AM »
How much do you bet Hot Dog is going to save the day?

I wouldn't go so far as to say he'll save the day, but they did sort of leave him hanging there.  So they either had to cut out some additional scene explaining what happened to him (very likely because BSG episodes always run long) or he's going to play some part in the next episode and his part was left opening to keep us guessing.

Hot Dog was the other pilot in the C.A.P. along with Narcho (a known mutineer) when Gaeta ordered the President's Raptor to be shot down towards the end of the episode. Considering she obviously made it to the Basestar as per the preview, the only real option for someone to intervene and prevent her death would be for Hot Dog to shoot down Narcho as he's going in for the kill.

A+ episode. Top ten of the series, easily. I'll post more later.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 03:21:13 AM by Bond, James Bond »

Offline Broken Subspace Scene

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2009, 08:58:35 AM »
Awesome to see Starbuck almost back to her old self and just being badass.  I actually yelled out loud when she showed up on the flight deck and popped those Marines.

Agreed.  Great episode.  I was surprised to see Zarek end up being more ruthless than Gaeta.

Anyone notice that in the scene where the rebels are arming themselves in the armory, you can hear someone say "concussion grenade"?  Probably a clue that what was used on Adama and Tigh ends up being something like a flashbang. 

Offline Setekh

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2009, 12:43:46 PM »
This episode was great. Probably my favorite of the series so far.

Offline CX

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2009, 01:08:08 PM »
Yeah, that looked like a flashbang, not a frag gernade.
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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 10:20:12 PM »
Fraking awesome episode!  8)

Part of me wants to see Roslin go nuts and nuke Geata and Zarek...
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Offline mark

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 10:57:57 PM »
Part of me wants to see Roslin go nuts and nuke Geata and Zarek...

I cannot see Gaeta getting away with, at the very least, not being thrown out of an airlock over this.

Best line was easily Starbuck's saying, "They are not your men anymore. They are the enemy."
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Offline Jimi James

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2009, 11:09:57 PM »
How much do you bet Hot Dog is going to save the day?

I wouldn't go so far as to say he'll save the day, but they did sort of leave him hanging there.  So they either had to cut out some additional scene explaining what happened to him (very likely because BSG episodes always run long) or he's going to play some part in the next episode and his part was left opening to keep us guessing.

Hot Dog was the other pilot in the C.A.P. along with Narcho (a known mutineer) when Gaeta ordered the President's Raptor to be shot down towards the end of the episode. Considering she obviously made it to the Basestar as per the preview, the only real option for someone to intervene and prevent her death would be for Hot Dog to shoot down Narcho as he's going in for the kill.

Ok, thanks.  I must have totally spaced over the mention of Hotdog in that scene.
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Offline CX

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2009, 12:17:43 AM »
Speaking of spacing, did they ever even show Tyrol/Hotdog's kid in this episode?
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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2009, 12:49:30 AM »
I don't think so.  According to the previous episodes podcast, the child playing Nicholas was somewhat difficult to work with...as I imagine most kids that age would be.  It was probably easier to just not show him or he wasn't available.
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Offline caisson2delta

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2009, 01:19:19 AM »
Got to agree with CX about the grenade. It definetly looked like a flashbang. Caught the episode before I went to work tonight and very awesome. Next week looks like it will be a nail bitter as well.

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2009, 04:03:46 AM »
People who need to die:

Gaeta
Zarek
Seelix (WTF was that shit with Anders? What a fucking psycho)
Connor
Narcho (well, he will most likely be worthy of death by the next episode, he's just an asshole and mutiny enabler for now)
Rape-threatening / Helo-assaulting asshole from Pegasus
Captain Kelly (that piece of shit should be killed, revived, and killed again for betraying Adama after being given a 2nd chance)
Racetrack's ECO from Pegasus if he hasn't died from his neck wound
Racetrack (with regret, because I liked her, but she stood by and let poor Laird get killed and was going to do nothing to help Lee)
A shitload of Nazi Marines (especially the guy who went overboard beating Anders, the ones who shot Adama's aide)

I say they should die despite the Cylons having done far worse and despite humanity being on the brink of extinction. They should have taken humanity's low numbers into account before going fucking crazy and starting to kill people left and right out of anger. This should have never gotten to the point where shooting was involved, especially considering they had the sympathy of most of the fleet. Passive resistance on all the ships in the fleet would have put the onus completely on Adama and Roslin (who would either have to step up or step down) to act offensively or reach a compromise.

The sad thing is, if they had pursued a more peaceful route than mutiny and mass murder, I could totally sympathize with their cause even while not entirely agreeing with it. While from a practical standpoint having the Cylon jumpdrives onboard is a huge boost, their concerns about Cylons having access to the networks on every ship in the fleet are completely valid, especially when even amongst the refugee Cylons there are still some nutjobs (especially amongst the 8s). Plus, granting the refugee Cylons citizen status and free reign amongst the fleet is something I can completely understand being angry and frightened at seeing as how they nearly wiped out humanity for no justifiable reason just a few years before and were pursuing them ever since.

In a way I'm glad the show is coming to an end, because while I love the acting, drama, and action of the show, I find its depiction of humanity in general to be absolutely loathsome and worthy of going extinct (with a few exceptions). I'm glad Moore wasn't able to get his wish for DS9 to be more like this (if that was truly the case and not just him talking out of his ass). I can take bleak tales and dark settings and even enjoy them, but it's hard to take ones where not just some but most of the people involved are absolutely reprehensible and irredeemable. This show exceeds even 'The Shield' in that respect, which is hard to do. This show wallows in depressing. So, while it's a great show and this was a great episode, it's a bit hard to take and I don't know if I'd be up for another Moore show if it continued this kind of attitude and outlook on life.

I think the one main mistake of the episode was making the mutineers not just traitors with a cause but irredeemable scum too. They kill people indiscriminately (there was absolutely no need for the shooting on the bridge, for killing Laird who could have easily been subdued, for trying to kill Lee, or for about half the firing throughout the ship - it mostly just seemed like people taking revenge on those they disliked rather than trying to secure the ship sometimes. They beat up and threatened people with rape and murder. Gaeta was actually one of the least reprehensible of the bunch up until he ordered Roslin's Raptor destroyed.

Their anger towards the Final Five, who have committed none of the crimes of their Cylon brethren, makes little sense either beyond basic bigotry. Lee especially should be beyond that.   

Now, as far as the preview goes with giving away the line about Tigh dying (BS move there SciFi), I see a couple possibilities:

- He really does die, and in doing so we found out how the Final Five resurrect and meet up with Ellen Tigh again.   
- Zarek is just bluffing about Tigh's death to force Roslin's hand and make her think he really will kill Adama.
 
I doubt they'd kill off someone as awesome as Colonel Tigh and not have him reappear, especially if Ellen is supposed to return (according to her).

I was very glad to see the return of the friendship and respect of Tigh and Adama, and the return to form of Starbuck and Roslin. It was great to see Starbuck and Lee teaming up again, and there was nothing more badass than Tigh and Adama holding the line against the mutineers, even if it was a rather pointless gesture tactically that just allows the mutineers to use Adama against Roslin. It was also good to see that Baltar is as self-centered as always, though he redeemed himself a bit with his speech to Gaeta.

Offline Stoo

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2009, 11:02:58 AM »
I think the one main mistake of the episode was making the mutineers not just traitors with a cause but irredeemable scum too.

Yeah. The mutineers kind of have a point - like you said it's difficult to trust and ally with people who, ya know, NUKED THE HUMAN RACE. But they're being a bunch of shits about it, and have such wonderful members as that crazy connor guy and Rapist Dude. Oh and Seelix takes the lead in having Anders beaten and captured cos he wouldn't smooch her.

You mentioned Kelly - I know an LSO was mentioned but don't recall seeing him specifically?

Anyway great ep, I just knew last week they were building up to something awesome. I wonder, will the mutiny be resolved next week? Or will the ship stay in Gaeta's hands till the end of the season? Or maybe even end up destroyed, I reckon Moore could do that to us.

I don't quite follow Saul and Adama's Last Stand tho. The raptor got away fine before the marines breached the door, so why didn't they hop on it?

Offline Setekh

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2009, 11:14:50 AM »
What was the deal in Baltar's speech to Gaeta about knowing one of his secrets signed with a special pen? I feel like I must be forgetting something that happened in a previous season.

I don't quite follow Saul and Adama's Last Stand tho. The raptor got away fine before the marines breached the door, so why didn't they hop on it?

Yeah, I was getting angry when Adama and Roslin were all kissing instead of getting on the ship. If they had just got on and done the kissing there, they all could have flown away.

Offline Alexzandyr

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2009, 11:21:20 AM »
I don't think that's why he stayed. I just think that's the reason he gave. Because if you remember Roslin said something along the lines of "I know what you have to do". This is Adama we're talking about, he's not going to give up with out a fight and to him that means taking the fight right to them.

As for all the gunfire. I like to think that it was caused by people fighting back and not just random acts of killing, though I'm sure some of it was. As for the shooting in CIC, the marine that did it was aiming for Adama...he was probably told to by Zarek or realized that the only way for this not to come back and bite them in the ass was to off the old man from the get go.

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2009, 02:37:05 PM »
What was the deal in Baltar's speech to Gaeta about knowing one of his secrets signed with a special pen? I feel like I must be forgetting something that happened in a previous season.

That was explained in the "Face of the Enemy" webisodes.  (I'll post the details in spoiler text in case you don't want to watch them and to avoid spoiling it for others...)
On New Caprica, Gaeta was making lists of names and giving it to an 8 that he thought was saving these people but she was really killing most of them and setting a few free so Gaeta wouldn't realize what was going on.  Baltar knew what was going on and kept it secret, he whispered it in Gaeta's ear while he was in the brig last season before Baltar's trial.  I'm sure the pen comment refers to Gaeta stabbing Baltar with a pen after Baltar told Gaeta he knew.
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Offline Bond, James Bond

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Re: BSG 4x15 "The Oath" - Discussion ($$$SPOILERS!!!$$$)
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2009, 01:32:21 AM »
You mentioned Kelly - I know an LSO was mentioned but don't recall seeing him specifically?

He wasn't in the episode (beyond the LSO mention) until the end when they showed up to storm secondary storage where Adama and Tigh were. He was leading the attackers.

Quote
I don't quite follow Saul and Adama's Last Stand tho. The raptor got away fine before the marines breached the door, so why didn't they hop on it?

They never had any intention of leaving, hence Roslin's line of "I know what you have to do" like Alex said. It's a silly decision tactically (but understandable at the same time), because Adama could potentially be used against Roslin and Tigh can be used against the Cylons if captured, but given Adama's more traditional approach to things I think he quite literally believes in the "Captain" going down with the ship. He wasn't about to give up without a fight, even if it was logically a hopeless one.

Plus, he's been betrayed, his lover is dying, everything he's led the fleet towards has fallen apart (including the fleet itself), and any action he takes on the Cylon Baseship might result in thousands dead and possibly his ship being destroyed, so he probably feels a last stand is the most honorable way to go out.

As for all the gunfire. I like to think that it was caused by people fighting back and not just random acts of killing, though I'm sure some of it was. As for the shooting in CIC, the marine that did it was aiming for Adama...he was probably told to by Zarek or realized that the only way for this not to come back and bite them in the ass was to off the old man from the get go.

Well sure, a lot of it was combat to take key sections of the ship, but in those recordings you also heard a lot of continuous bursts of gunfire with no return fire followed by agonized screams, so I think there was a lot of revenge killing going on. Plus, we saw bodies lying in the corridors with no weapons sometimes.

Whether or not Zarek ordered Adama's death (and I realize they were aiming for him and not Private Nobody - congrats to him on being seemingly the only Marine not involved in the mutiny), there was no real need to do it. If they had escorted Adama and Tigh with a proper security detail to the brig instead of two guys they could have kept Adama secured and unable to communicate or take action. That's what I mean about them being scumbags. They were killing not just out of necessity, and they didn't seem to take any steps to minimize casualties.

On another note, I don't see how a mutiny of this scope could be remotely possible without some of the loyalists catching wind of it through scuttlebutt or from trying to be recruited and reporting it back to Tigh or Adama. That would imply that everyone who was recruited joined the mutiny with no exceptions, or those exceptions were killed off or locked up quietly. Which Adama and Tigh should have also caught wind of if people started disappearing.

It leads me to believe that 1) this was the most well-executed secret large-scale mutiny in the history of mutinies, 2) everything went down so quickly after Gaeta's meeting that rumors didn't have time to filter up the chain of command, or 3), Adama's really hated now by most of his crew to the point where you can gather 40 some-odd crew of varying backgrounds in a room like Gaeta did and not one of them will be loyal to Adama, which is jacked up. 

One part I laughed at was when Lee and Kara were going down the corridor and ran into that guy who held his gun and hands up and said "It's okay," and then they immediately turn their back on the still armed man. How the hell did they know he was a loyalist and not someone they just got the drop on so he raised his hands? Speaking of which, there were probably a hell of a lot of friendly fire deaths from mutineers and loyalists killing their own because they had no way of knowing who was on what side.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 02:05:28 AM by Bond, James Bond »