Author Topic: Flagg is out  (Read 29685 times)

Offline Bernd

  • Administrator
  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,865
  • Lord of the Bored
    • View Profile
Flagg is out
« on: June 16, 2009, 07:29:20 AM »
If anyone wonders what has become of Flagg, I have permanently banned him. He has a long record of insulting people here at the SCN, including me, and somehow I always put up with it. But the final straw was that he took part in a badmouthing campagin against me at another place.

Offline Xero

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,583
  • Let the big man do his job.
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 07:41:46 AM »
Oh, come on....

He's an asshole, but he was ok.
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Offline Manticore

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,402
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 12:41:36 PM »
Oh, come on....

He's an asshole, but he was ok.

No.  No he was not.  He constantly insulted and disrespected anyone who disagreed with him on any subject and managed to stifle a lot of discussion around this place.

Offline Xero

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,583
  • Let the big man do his job.
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2009, 02:56:35 PM »
Becasue he was willing to call people on their bullshit?
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Offline Bernd

  • Administrator
  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,865
  • Lord of the Bored
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2009, 02:58:43 PM »
Because he said bullshit to people who just wanted to discuss.

Online Fiery Little One

  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,794
  • Live Long and Prosper
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2009, 03:15:14 PM »
When I first saw this topic title, I had to remind myself of the date. Will he be missed? Personally, I had no strong feelings about him one way or the other but if all the chats I've had with people over the years since jooining this place is any indication, the words "Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out" come to mind.
Open your mind to new possibilities
-Trip(sort of), The Crossing

Offline Manticore

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,402
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2009, 03:22:24 PM »
Becasue he was willing to call people on their bullshit?

There's calling people on their bullshit, and then there's thinking that any opinion that you don't share is bullshit.

Flagg was the latter.

Offline Kestra

  • Veteran Member
  • Posts: 2,126
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2009, 04:54:15 PM »
Well this completely sucks.  So much for my coming back.

Edit:  Way to ruin my birthday. :( :(
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 05:03:54 PM by Kestra »
... dancing in the night in the middle of June ...

Offline Broken Subspace Scene

  • Prolific Member
  • Posts: 701
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 06:50:16 PM »
Is this a "for reals" permanent ban?  I thought he had been booted for good several years ago and was let back in after a sort of cool down period, but I might just be thinking of one of the temp bans.

In any case, he was just one of Bond's many sock puppet accounts.  No big loss.

Offline Manticore

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,402
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 07:13:14 PM »
Is this a "for reals" permanent ban?  I thought he had been booted for good several years ago and was let back in after a sort of cool down period, but I might just be thinking of one of the temp bans.

Madcat and I managed to get rid of him for about a year or so, but he was let back in. /sigh :P

Quote
In any case, he was just one of Bond's many sock puppet accounts.  No big loss.

Please tell me that you're joking?


Offline Broken Subspace Scene

  • Prolific Member
  • Posts: 701
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 07:29:33 PM »
Quote
In any case, he was just one of Bond's many sock puppet accounts.  No big loss.

Please tell me that you're joking?

I thought that was fairly obvious but I suppose you can't take these things for granted.  So yes. :P

Offline Jedigreedo

  • Veteran Member
  • Posts: 2,189
  • Red Shirt Says Aaggghh
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 07:52:45 PM »
I can't say I'll miss his constant egging people on to argue, but admittedly there were times in which I found his brutal honesty as an interesting addition.  Bit of a 50/50 split between times when it was interesting and when it was completely ridiculous, though.
"We came, we saw, we conquered, we woke up!"

Offline Manticore

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,402
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2009, 09:29:26 PM »
Quote
In any case, he was just one of Bond's many sock puppet accounts.  No big loss.

Please tell me that you're joking?

I thought that was fairly obvious but I suppose you can't take these things for granted.  So yes. :P

To be fair, it's been a long time since we've talked at all, and that was a popular theory for a while, at least among the disaffected. :P

I never subscribed to it, but I knew some who did.  All of whom are long gone now, thank god.

Offline Commodore Horton

  • Veteran Member
  • Posts: 1,448
  • No, really, I'm a moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 11:46:33 PM »
I can't say I'll miss him...I remember when I was new here, although I was idealistic about the whole 'no naughty words' thing, he went completely wacko about it. Taught me a lesson about things, though. But aside from that, I can't think of any way he positively effected my experience here.

Altough, I have to admit I'm a bit surprised it took this long. Either way, thanks Bernd.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 11:50:59 PM by Commodore Horton »
Nos Vadum Triumphus

Offline Kestra

  • Veteran Member
  • Posts: 2,126
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2009, 12:25:20 AM »
But aside from that, I can't think of any way he positively effected my experience here.

I can't think of any way you've positively affected my experience here.

But I suppose that's not relevant, right?  We might as well just talk crap about Flagg since he's gone now?

Well here's a few things about Flagg.  I got into a disagreement with him pretty early on when I joined SCN, and his attitude bugged me.  So I talked to him about it, got to know him, and we both decided the other person deserved a bit more respect than we had previously thought.  Flagg has, at times, singlehandedly made me look at things in a completely different way.  He's taught me not to take everything at face value, and I've realized that there are some times where being polite is much less effective than being honest.  And civility is a big thing to me, so that's not an easy concession to make.

I'm clearly upset that he has been banned, I think it's stupid, and I think the forum's going to become that much more dead and boring because of it.  But here's another thing.  I'm sad for you guys that you think it's a good thing.  I think it's sad that you haven't seen the positive things about him that I and a few others have.  Because as much as Flagg has pissed me off, been rude to me, offended me, and disagreed with me ... he's been one of the people I am the most grateful for meeting online.  He's been patient and kind, he's apologized sincerely to me when I deserved it, and he's been the type of friend that I've been incredibly lucky to have these past few years.  So I'm sad that your interactions with him have been limited to you being insulted by him on the forum, and that none of you have gotten anything more out of your experiences here with him.  But whatever, I'm lucky to know him, and that's not going to change because of what goes on here.
... dancing in the night in the middle of June ...

Offline Commodore Horton

  • Veteran Member
  • Posts: 1,448
  • No, really, I'm a moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2009, 01:33:19 AM »
But aside from that, I can't think of any way he positively effected my experience here.

I can't think of any way you've positively affected my experience here.

But I suppose that's not relevant, right?  We might as well just talk crap about Flagg since he's gone now?

Well here's a few things about Flagg.  I got into a disagreement with him pretty early on when I joined SCN, and his attitude bugged me.  So I talked to him about it, got to know him, and we both decided the other person deserved a bit more respect than we had previously thought.  Flagg has, at times, singlehandedly made me look at things in a completely different way.  He's taught me not to take everything at face value, and I've realized that there are some times where being polite is much less effective than being honest.  And civility is a big thing to me, so that's not an easy concession to make.

I'm clearly upset that he has been banned, I think it's stupid, and I think the forum's going to become that much more dead and boring because of it.  But here's another thing.  I'm sad for you guys that you think it's a good thing.  I think it's sad that you haven't seen the positive things about him that I and a few others have.  Because as much as Flagg has pissed me off, been rude to me, offended me, and disagreed with me ... he's been one of the people I am the most grateful for meeting online.  He's been patient and kind, he's apologized sincerely to me when I deserved it, and he's been the type of friend that I've been incredibly lucky to have these past few years.  So I'm sad that your interactions with him have been limited to you being insulted by him on the forum, and that none of you have gotten anything more out of your experiences here with him.  But whatever, I'm lucky to know him, and that's not going to change because of what goes on here.


Well...how do I respond to this.

I truly, truly take you at your word when you say that you feel that he's been a kind, patient, sincere human being. With as much sincerity as I can provide from one computer monitor to another, I truly sympathize with your feelings. Yes, we are dwelling on the negative aspects of Flagg's participation at the forum. Yes, the negative part of anything does not typically describe the whole. And yes, to you I apologize for the anger you are feeling as a result of my statement. However, I can not sincerely and honestly apologize for my prior statement regarding his removal from SCN.

In my few virtual encounters with Flagg, I consistently was left with...a less than favorable opinion of him; not at all because they disagreed with my own, not because his were wrong (in hindsight, their was more than one occassion where in retrospect, I have more respect for a few of his statements than I did initially), but because of how he approuched anything he disagreed with. While he may have done an exemplary job at making you see things in a new way, I personally doubt he ever intended to experience any form of paradigym shift himself. Personal opinion, nothing more. And even still, I would not feel that was anything close to a condition meriting discipline.

However, I would like to gently suggest that perhaps your positive experience with Flagg was a unique one. Looking down the post history here, it appears that aside from you, only Xero has expressed any discontent with Flagg's forced departure, and his seemed somewhat restrained. Xero is welcome to clarify his position if he deems it neccissary, but to my unexpert eye, very few people have good things to say about Flagg.

I genuinely wish that I could have understood what made Flagg tick to the point at which perhaps, just perhaps I would be able to support your position, and see him as a more 'human' human-being. We see very little of who a person truly is online, and that part is often distorted by trying to support a position. But what I see is that, as an online participant at SCN, Flagg was unable for reasons unknown to me to contribute to the group's conversations, rants, etc. in a civilized way.

Kestra, I am truly sorry that my statement has caused you grief, anger, or what-have-you. I never wish to annoy anyone unneccisarily. But Flagg is Flagg, Flagg was Flagg, and now because of that, Flagg is gone.
Nos Vadum Triumphus

Offline Manticore

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,402
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2009, 02:13:47 AM »
Kestra, I'm sure that he can be a great guy when you're friends with him--heck, I used to consider him a friend too, and we generally got along decently during that time period (before your time, IIRC).  The problem that I have/had with Flagg is that he apparently disrespects everyone whom he doesn't consider a friend, and disagrees with.  I'm trying to think of someone besides Bond who regularly posted that he was actually interested in discussion with...yeah, it's not coming.

I think that this will be a good thing for the health of the board.  I can't imagine what it must be like for newbies to have some self-righteous asshole refuse to listen to their points.  And it hasn't all been "calling people on their bullshit."  Look at how he treated Edymnion over that whole fucking controversy about the size of the goddamn Enterprise in the new movie.  I consider Edymnion one of the more articulate and intelligent posters here, and seeing his points dismissed as "idiocy" when he had evidence backing them up sat wrong with me.

Oh, and I've called him on everything that I've said here to his face plenty of times (inasmuch as anything online can be said to his face).  He knows what I think of him.  I doubt that he cares, but he knows.

That said, I'm not going to deny that I have a history with him.  Like I said, I'm one of the people who made the call to Perma-ban him the first time around, what, five years ago?  And I'm sure that's coloring my view on this issue; I'm only human, after all.

I'm sorry that I said this, since I consider you one of my closer friends, and I regret that we so rarely talk anymore, but I have call things how I see them. :(

PS, Horton, you've been here since '06!?  Holy crap!  Time flies...

Offline Bond, James Bond

  • Administrator
  • Minor Board Deity
  • Posts: 31,805
  • Licensed to Ban
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2009, 03:05:09 AM »
Well, I check in on my vacation to say "hi" and see how everyone is doing, and I find this little unilateral surprise decision that hadn't been discussed at all and follows right on the heels of CX's ban, which followed him quiting (but not before leaving the trademark internet parting shot) rather than us forcing him out. And it certainly didn't take place without extensive discussion on his behavior earlier. But I'm sure this happening right as I'm on vacation and after CX quiting is completely coincidental.

Say what you will about Flagg and his behavior, but I find the timing of this event and the way it was handled to be less than satisfactory to put it mildly. To be continued when I get home...

Offline Manticore

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,402
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2009, 03:17:37 AM »
Wait...Bernd didn't talk about this at all in the mod forums?

He's been a member of such long-standing that I'd think that'd be necessary, or else his smear campaign had better be downright vile.

Which is not to say that I disagree with the decision...I'd just feel more comfortable with it if it had been discussed.

Offline Bond, James Bond

  • Administrator
  • Minor Board Deity
  • Posts: 31,805
  • Licensed to Ban
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2009, 03:32:23 AM »
^^^ Nope.

CX had been talking shit about me on other forums and over IM/in PMs for upwards of six years off and on. It sucks, and it doesn't feel good, but you deal with it. Or you can call them out on it here or there, like I did, and try and resolve the issue.


Offline Bernd

  • Administrator
  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,865
  • Lord of the Bored
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2009, 04:36:31 AM »
I take the full and sole responsibility for Flagg's ban. I banned him without previous consultation. And as far as I am concerned he will not return.

Offline Xero

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,583
  • Let the big man do his job.
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 04:54:41 AM »
But aside from that, I can't think of any way he positively effected my experience here.

I can't think of any way you've positively affected my experience here.

But I suppose that's not relevant, right?  We might as well just talk crap about Flagg since he's gone now?

Well here's a few things about Flagg.  I got into a disagreement with him pretty early on when I joined SCN, and his attitude bugged me.  So I talked to him about it, got to know him, and we both decided the other person deserved a bit more respect than we had previously thought.  Flagg has, at times, singlehandedly made me look at things in a completely different way.  He's taught me not to take everything at face value, and I've realized that there are some times where being polite is much less effective than being honest.  And civility is a big thing to me, so that's not an easy concession to make.

I'm clearly upset that he has been banned, I think it's stupid, and I think the forum's going to become that much more dead and boring because of it.  But here's another thing.  I'm sad for you guys that you think it's a good thing.  I think it's sad that you haven't seen the positive things about him that I and a few others have.  Because as much as Flagg has pissed me off, been rude to me, offended me, and disagreed with me ... he's been one of the people I am the most grateful for meeting online.  He's been patient and kind, he's apologized sincerely to me when I deserved it, and he's been the type of friend that I've been incredibly lucky to have these past few years.  So I'm sad that your interactions with him have been limited to you being insulted by him on the forum, and that none of you have gotten anything more out of your experiences here with him.  But whatever, I'm lucky to know him, and that's not going to change because of what goes on here.


Well...how do I respond to this.

I truly, truly take you at your word when you say that you feel that he's been a kind, patient, sincere human being. With as much sincerity as I can provide from one computer monitor to another, I truly sympathize with your feelings. Yes, we are dwelling on the negative aspects of Flagg's participation at the forum. Yes, the negative part of anything does not typically describe the whole. And yes, to you I apologize for the anger you are feeling as a result of my statement. However, I can not sincerely and honestly apologize for my prior statement regarding his removal from SCN.

In my few virtual encounters with Flagg, I consistently was left with...a less than favorable opinion of him; not at all because they disagreed with my own, not because his were wrong (in hindsight, their was more than one occassion where in retrospect, I have more respect for a few of his statements than I did initially), but because of how he approuched anything he disagreed with. While he may have done an exemplary job at making you see things in a new way, I personally doubt he ever intended to experience any form of paradigym shift himself. Personal opinion, nothing more. And even still, I would not feel that was anything close to a condition meriting discipline.

However, I would like to gently suggest that perhaps your positive experience with Flagg was a unique one. Looking down the post history here, it appears that aside from you, only Xero has expressed any discontent with Flagg's forced departure, and his seemed somewhat restrained. Xero is welcome to clarify his position if he deems it neccissary, but to my unexpert eye, very few people have good things to say about Flagg.

I genuinely wish that I could have understood what made Flagg tick to the point at which perhaps, just perhaps I would be able to support your position, and see him as a more 'human' human-being. We see very little of who a person truly is online, and that part is often distorted by trying to support a position. But what I see is that, as an online participant at SCN, Flagg was unable for reasons unknown to me to contribute to the group's conversations, rants, etc. in a civilized way.

Kestra, I am truly sorry that my statement has caused you grief, anger, or what-have-you. I never wish to annoy anyone unneccisarily. But Flagg is Flagg, Flagg was Flagg, and now because of that, Flagg is gone.


I prefer to be succinct, then to give a long winded reason as to why I think his banning is completely retarded.

Like Kestra, Flagg and I have come to a mutual understanding. There's only a handful of people here I have great respect for, Flagg is on the top of that list.
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Offline Razor

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 15,820
  • All things not of this world
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 05:00:55 AM »
While Ive had more than my fair share of minor scuffles with Flagg and really didnt care for his lack of tact he was a long time contributing member of this board. This whole thing dosent sit too well with me.
“The boat dipped and swayed and sometimes took on water, but it did not sink; the two brothers had waterproofed it well. I do not know where it finally fetched up, if it ever did; perhaps it reached the sea and sails there forever, like a magic boat in a fairytale. All I know is that it was still afloat and still running on the breast of the flood when it passed the incorporated town limits of Derry, Maine, and there it passes out of this tale forever.” ― Stephen King, It"
High priest in the Cult of J

Offline USS Mariner

  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 4,458
  • Absolutley Right™
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2009, 08:53:23 AM »
I can agree with Kestra's opinion of Flagg, although my best interactions with him were on the Infopop board, right around the first or second year that I joined. I traded a few emails with him, and he stuck me at the time as a crabby but genuinely smart and witty guy. I'll admit that I've had heated discussions with him more recently, and that I've done things probably more banal than he has on many occasions recently, but I wish he wasn't banned.
"Improve a mechanical device and you may double productivity. But improve man, you gain a thousandfold." - Khan Noonien Singh
"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." - General George S. Patton

Offline Jedigreedo

  • Veteran Member
  • Posts: 2,189
  • Red Shirt Says Aaggghh
    • View Profile
Re: Flagg is out
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2009, 08:55:38 AM »
I can't think of any way you've positively affected my experience here.

But I suppose that's not relevant, right?  We might as well just talk crap about Flagg since he's gone now?

Well here's a few things about Flagg.  I got into a disagreement with him pretty early on when I joined SCN, and his attitude bugged me.  So I talked to him about it, got to know him, and we both decided the other person deserved a bit more respect than we had previously thought.  Flagg has, at times, singlehandedly made me look at things in a completely different way.  He's taught me not to take everything at face value, and I've realized that there are some times where being polite is much less effective than being honest.  And civility is a big thing to me, so that's not an easy concession to make.

I'm clearly upset that he has been banned, I think it's stupid, and I think the forum's going to become that much more dead and boring because of it.  But here's another thing.  I'm sad for you guys that you think it's a good thing.  I think it's sad that you haven't seen the positive things about him that I and a few others have.  Because as much as Flagg has pissed me off, been rude to me, offended me, and disagreed with me ... he's been one of the people I am the most grateful for meeting online.  He's been patient and kind, he's apologized sincerely to me when I deserved it, and he's been the type of friend that I've been incredibly lucky to have these past few years.  So I'm sad that your interactions with him have been limited to you being insulted by him on the forum, and that none of you have gotten anything more out of your experiences here with him.  But whatever, I'm lucky to know him, and that's not going to change because of what goes on here.


The problem with that, however, is that not everybody is going to have the same experiences as you have, and there is no denying that he seemed to have quite a vendetta against some people; some were called for as they had a trollish attitude, and others just didn't deserve the constant barrage such as Manticore and Maple Dog.  Honestly, though, I know he's quite intelligent and one of the select few people on here that you can learn alot from by keeping track of his many serious debates.  He just drastically needs to dial back the personal attacks and vindictive attitude.

All that said, I think his ban should only be temporary, a week at the very most.
"We came, we saw, we conquered, we woke up!"