Author Topic: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!  (Read 17571 times)

Offline Edymnion

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Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« on: July 12, 2010, 08:47:47 AM »
« Last Edit: July 12, 2010, 08:59:22 AM by Edymnion »

Offline Broken Subspace Scene

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 02:19:16 PM »
While it looks better in some respects, from the side it seems rather kitbashed.  I don't know if that's as much of a problem given this is a refit in a more primitive time, but it's just not a unified design to me.

Offline Edymnion

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 02:38:16 PM »
I really hate it when people say "kitbashed" like its a bad thing.  Especially when the bulk of ships we seen on screen are kitbashes.  Nebulas, Constellations, hell, I even consider the Miranda to be a kitbash (its a refit Connie with a boxy butt and no secondary hull, thats about it).  And thats without even getting into ships like the Centaur.

Offline The Daft Punk

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 02:47:46 PM »
While it looks better in some respects, from the side it seems rather kitbashed.  I don't know if that's as much of a problem given this is a refit in a more primitive time, but it's just not a unified design to me.

Agreed. It's kitbashed in a bad way. A much more organic alternative would be to just have the engineering hull flow directly into the saucer. An NX-with-an-underslung-engineering-hull is nothing new, they all look the same, and none of them look good.
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Offline Broken Subspace Scene

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 04:12:41 PM »
I meant it in reference to the awful, half-assed fandom kitbashes that many of us loathe, as well as the oft-reviled studio efforts like the Yeager.  Yes, the canon ships you mention are fine ships, but I think there's a difference between showing family lineage and kitbashing.  Most of the ships you mention don't look like a slapped together ensemble of parts.  I think this NX does. 

Offline Edymnion

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 06:51:59 PM »
I meant it in reference to the awful, half-assed fandom kitbashes that many of us loathe, as well as the oft-reviled studio efforts like the Yeager.  Yes, the canon ships you mention are fine ships, but I think there's a difference between showing family lineage and kitbashing.  Most of the ships you mention don't look like a slapped together ensemble of parts.  I think this NX does. 
Yes, but the difference there is that its bad because you don't think the components fit, or that it was poorly done.  Its bad because it was poorly done, not because it was a kitbash.

For the record, I feel the same way about people saying "It looks like MS Paint", because I have seen stuff done in Paint that would make your jaw drop (did mine).

I guess, bottom line, is bash something because it is bad, not because of method used.  Especially not when we're living in a glass house where half the the cannon ships are kitbashes.

Offline Indefatigable

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 07:55:50 PM »
I like it.  I remember doing plenty of drawings of an NX with a Daedalus-style hull grafted to the underside, and they all looked hideous no matter how I tweaked them.  This gets it pretty much right, and makes the ship fit in with other Enterprises much better, partly by erasing some of the Akira elements.  However, it still makes the ship look too advanced and too big, although there is no way of changing that now.

My twopenn'orth on kitbashing.  In the real world, you often get 'families' of designs, or designs with rearranged modular components.  I've done volunteer work at a railway heritage centre, and you often find parts stamped with the numbers of several different locomotives from more than one class.  Many GWR designs are real-life kitbashes of six basic designs that originally used two types of boiler, two basic frames, three coupled wheel diameters and one cylinder block design.  They ended up with eighteen classes of 2-cylinder engine over a 40-year period, still using that self-same cylinder block.  As long as you don't do anything silly, like stick a No1 (big) boiler on top of a set of tiny frames, you usually end up with a workable locomotive.  Look on the frames as the saucer, the boiler as the engineering section and the running gear as the nacelles.
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Offline Broken Subspace Scene

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 08:18:05 PM »
Yes, but the difference there is that its bad because you don't think the components fit, or that it was poorly done.  Its bad because it was poorly done, not because it was a kitbash.

Uh, okay.  This:

Agreed. It's kitbashed in a bad way.

Offline Torlek

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 10:02:41 PM »
My twopenn'orth on kitbashing.  In the real world, you often get 'families' of designs, or designs with rearranged modular components.  I've done volunteer work at a railway heritage centre, and you often find parts stamped with the numbers of several different locomotives from more than one class.  Many GWR designs are real-life kitbashes of six basic designs that originally used two types of boiler, two basic frames, three coupled wheel diameters and one cylinder block design.  They ended up with eighteen classes of 2-cylinder engine over a 40-year period, still using that self-same cylinder block.  As long as you don't do anything silly, like stick a No1 (big) boiler on top of a set of tiny frames, you usually end up with a workable locomotive.  Look on the frames as the saucer, the boiler as the engineering section and the running gear as the nacelles.
Except for the fact that is a terrible analogy. Yes, you can effectively kitbash land vehicles like locomotives or tanks and, within sensibility, get serviceable vehicles. Starships would be more like planes, specifically supersonic planes. You can't take the wings off an F-4, the tail off an F-16, mate them to the fuselage of an F-15 with the nose of an F-14 and expect the thing to go mach 2 since all it's component planes could.

There was nothing fundamentally wrong with the NX-01 design. Could it have an engineering hull? Sure, why not. Unfortunately all this design does is bolt a Constitution-esque secondary hull to the bottom of the NX hull in an obvious attempt to say, "Look! The NX was the beginning of the design evolution that led to the Constitution!"
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Offline Edymnion

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 06:53:51 AM »
Yeah, but aircraft don't have structural integrity fields that allow it to be literally any shape you want and still function.  I mean, we have a flying happy meal box as a major villain ship in this show, after all.

Offline The Daft Punk

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 10:28:09 AM »
There was nothing fundamentally wrong with the NX-01 design. Could it have an engineering hull? Sure, why not. Unfortunately all this design does is bolt a Constitution-esque secondary hull to the bottom of the NX hull in an obvious attempt to say, "Look! The NX was the beginning of the design evolution that led to the Constitution!"

This. This soooo much. People only stick an engineering hull onto the NX in some misguided fanboy attempt to reconcile the NX with the Constitution. Why does the progression have to be NX->Constitution? Where is that written? A much better idea would be to design an intermediary step, so it goes NX->Missing Link Class->Constitution. An engineering hull does nothing to the design, and it makes it look fucking stupid.
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Offline Indefatigable

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2010, 01:53:23 PM »
Except for the fact that is a terrible analogy. Yes, you can effectively kitbash land vehicles like locomotives or tanks and, within sensibility, get serviceable vehicles. Starships would be more like planes, specifically supersonic planes. You can't take the wings off an F-4, the tail off an F-16, mate them to the fuselage of an F-15 with the nose of an F-14 and expect the thing to go mach 2 since all it's component planes could.

Someone really has to Photoshop that! :D

Seriously, AFAICT, Starfleet vessels are essentially modular.  That actually matches current spacecraft practice in some ways.  Mercury went up on Redstone and Atlas launchers.  The same Titan that launched Gemini was really an ICBM, but has often been used to launch satellites, sometimes with two boosters strapped to the side.  Saturn rockets of various types launched Apollo and Skylab.  Soyuz components went into Salyut and Mir.  As for the ISS, that is a kludge of Mir 2, Freedom and various other parts from other nations.  That's probably another terrible analogy, starships are probably not reconfigurable, but I imagine that the E-D's drive section could probably have powered the Yamato or the Galaxy without too much trouble.

This. This soooo much. People only stick an engineering hull onto the NX in some misguided fanboy attempt to reconcile the NX with the Constitution. Why does the progression have to be NX->Constitution? Where is that written? A much better idea would be to design an intermediary step, so it goes NX->Missing Link Class->Constitution. An engineering hull does nothing to the design, and it makes it look fucking stupid.

One would assume that that is the Daedalus, but we supposedly know what that looks like, and it's a lot more primitive than the NX.  I've read Bernd's page on the class, and can't really do much more than point you in the right direction.
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Offline Broken Subspace Scene

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2010, 02:31:05 PM »
I understand what you're trying to say, but comparing contemporary spacecraft to even an NX-class is kind of like comparing a turn of the century horse-and-buggy to a Audi R8.  Starfleet ships are far beyond rockets and feature exotic technologies like SIF, etc.  In some respects, it makes sense that you can slap 'primitive' stuff together and it'll still work - it makes less sense the more advanced the technologies are. 

When you can't, as Torlek pointed out, swap aircraft parts, and probably can't even easily swap a similarly sized engines or major components from, say a 2010 Mustang into a 2010 Camaro, it's a bit silly to say "oh, you can just mix and match multi-ton starship parts channels enormous amounts of power while hurtling through space".  I think the fact that many of the canon starship designs have reasonably long R&D phases is testament to the complexity involved in ship design, SIF or not.

As for your point about the E-D, I would imagine you're right, but they're ships of the same class.  That would make sense to me, hardware-wise at least - software might be another issue? 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 02:39:07 PM by Broken Subspace Scene »

Offline The Daft Punk

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2010, 03:19:35 PM »
This. This soooo much. People only stick an engineering hull onto the NX in some misguided fanboy attempt to reconcile the NX with the Constitution. Why does the progression have to be NX->Constitution? Where is that written? A much better idea would be to design an intermediary step, so it goes NX->Missing Link Class->Constitution. An engineering hull does nothing to the design, and it makes it look fucking stupid.

One would assume that that is the Daedalus, but we supposedly know what that looks like, and it's a lot more primitive than the NX.  I've read Bernd's page on the class, and can't really do much more than point you in the right direction.

The Daedalus class design is actually non-canon. Aside from a background model, it's never been explicitly said "This was what the Daedalus class looked like". It's fanon, taken from the fanon (at best) Star Trek Encyclopedia, and so arguing that it's the logical progression of the starfleet lineage is moronic. For all we know, Sisko's model could have been something completely unrealted to the Daedalus Class, and the the USS Horizon actually looked more like the NX.
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"Until a man is 25, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I moved to a martial arts monastery in China and studied real hard for 10 years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad."
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Offline Shik

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2010, 04:59:43 PM »
Always thought the NX would look good with an excelsior-like bulb (no tail) bolted right on to the bottom. I'd do an image up but I'm lazy.

Offline Bernd

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2010, 11:28:11 AM »
I like the idea of a refit, and its look. I think it looks good from all angles.

Still, it is just a secondary design that keeps some of the things I didn't like about the "Akiraprise", such as the catamaran hull. With the new engineering hull in place I would have removed the catamaran.

Offline The Unbound

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2010, 11:43:44 AM »
Always thought the NX would look good with an excelsior-like bulb (no tail) bolted right on to the bottom. I'd do an image up but I'm lazy.

You mean, sort of like the bulb on the underside of the Akira's saucer already?

I will say this for that revised NX: the secondary hull livens up the underside and no mistake. It does look a lot like something that's been bolted on long after the ship was first designed, which, if you think about it, makes sense. That does not mean it's pretty. Doesn't make it a kitbash either, since, clearly, it hasn't come out of any kit.

As for kitbashing starships, I'm sure it could be done, if you really put your mind to it (assuming, of course, that you happen to be a starship engineer), but I'm also fairly sure that it would turn out to be a horrible mess of mis-matched infrastructure, corridors and new and interesting structural weak points.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 11:45:22 AM by The Unbound »
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Offline Indefatigable

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2010, 12:03:04 PM »
I understand what you're trying to say, but comparing contemporary spacecraft to even an NX-class is kind of like comparing a turn of the century horse-and-buggy to a Audi R8.  Starfleet ships are far beyond rockets and feature exotic technologies like SIF, etc.  In some respects, it makes sense that you can slap 'primitive' stuff together and it'll still work - it makes less sense the more advanced the technologies are. 

When you can't, as Torlek pointed out, swap aircraft parts, and probably can't even easily swap a similarly sized engines or major components from, say a 2010 Mustang into a 2010 Camaro, it's a bit silly to say "oh, you can just mix and match multi-ton starship parts channels enormous amounts of power while hurtling through space".  I think the fact that many of the canon starship designs have reasonably long R&D phases is testament to the complexity involved in ship design, SIF or not.

As for your point about the E-D, I would imagine you're right, but they're ships of the same class.  That would make sense to me, hardware-wise at least - software might be another issue? 

I think this needs a new thread

http://www.subspace-comms.net/index.php?topic=3634.0
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Offline Shik

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 05:39:13 PM »
Always thought the NX would look good with an excelsior-like bulb (no tail) bolted right on to the bottom. I'd do an image up but I'm lazy.

You mean, sort of like the bulb on the underside of the Akira's saucer already?

No, father back. Bolt it right on under where the drop bays are, with some of the truncated tail sticking out back, but not past the pod.

Offline Broken Subspace Scene

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2010, 05:40:01 PM »
Hm, that sounds potentially interesting.  I'm not sure if it would work without a more extensive restyle of some of the catamaran stuff, though.

Offline Shik

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2010, 07:18:14 PM »
Maybe this weekend I'll do a quick image C&P. I know it works because I did a physical element matchup before.

Offline Shik

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 10:53:27 AM »
OK, yeah. So what I was thinking was something like this:


Offline Broken Subspace Scene

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2010, 02:14:35 PM »
That looks a little too advanced maybe (I know it's just a quick job, just saying), but I like it a lot better, particularly if the space between the catamarans is filled in somehow.  From the side, this has better visual balance and looks infinitely less awkward/like it will fall apart after a good shove.

Offline Jimi James

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 03:25:37 PM »
Personally, I'm not sure that any solution will work really.  You're trying to put an engineering hull on a ship that was never designed to have one.  It'd be like putting a new engineering section on the Defiant class.  No matter how well the new hull matches up with the original, it's just not going to look, or possibly even function, as well as if the secondary hull had been included from the onset.  It's always going to seem tacked on because we're accustomed to seeing the NX without one.

I think that adding any kind of secondary hull ruins the design of the NX anyway.  It works fine the way it is, for what it is.  If they want something that's a bridge between the NX and the Connie, then they should design a brand new ship.  That being said, the NX class (in either form) is still a terrible excuse for a pre-TOS design.

They should have gone with a more realistic version of the Daedalus class, like this:

It could have then been upgraded later on to look more like the Daedalus class we know, giving it hull that more resembles the Connie's smoother surface.  Further upgrades to the nacelles and engineering hull could have even taken it closer towards looking like the Connie, at least in style and detailing, to the point that the only difference is the shape of the main hull, sphere, vs. saucer.  And you don't need a whole new class of ship to make that leap.

But since we're stuck with the NX as it is, they really should go ahead and just design a new ship that links the NX and the Connie, instead of trying to make the NX such a Connie wannabe.
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Offline The Daft Punk

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Re: Now *THAT* is an NX-01!
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2010, 03:37:16 PM »
I think the Daedalus class is a fuck ugly design that has, by a freak chance, become the gold standard for pre-TOS design. Why does it have to look like some cobbled together hunk-o-junk? If anything, pre-TOS ships should look more like Flagg's Sol class, or something stream lined, compact, and not ungainly as hell. Even something like the redesigned Daedalus on EAS barely works.



Once, long a go, I designed an NX/Connie in-between for CX's (in hindsight, crappy and poorly run) Star Trek: Foundations, which has been lost to history (i.e. it was doodled in the margins of a notebook). If I had the time/access to a scanner, I'd whip it up, but I'm a lazy fuck. Guido made a (off the mark and customized for him) bash of it ahwile ago, but I don't know where it is.

*EDIT* IT CAME FROM BEYOND THE THREAD! After some Google-Fu, I managed to track down my NX redesign from FND, renamed the EX just 'cause. Behold! My inferior pencil skills from three years ago!



« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 03:45:20 PM by The Daft Punk »
Harder.Better.Faster.Stronger
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"Until a man is 25, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world. If I moved to a martial arts monastery in China and studied real hard for 10 years. If my family was wiped out by Colombian drug dealers and I swore myself to revenge. If I got a fatal disease, had one year to live, devoted it to wiping out street crime. If I just dropped out and devoted my life to being bad."
- "Snow Crash", Neal Stephenson