Author Topic: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...  (Read 9359 times)

Offline Makaveli

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Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« on: August 12, 2012, 02:03:33 PM »
Ok so I just saw a post by George Tekei come across my Facebook news feed, he posted a picture of the Enterprise D face to face with an Star Destroyer and the question "Who would win?" .. Well obviously tere was a lot of discussion and name calling in this post that I really didn't feel like reading but it gave me an idea that could maybe spark a little discussion here, using our knowledge of both universes and it's technology who would win if these two happened to come to blows...

So what do you all think, I don't even care which Trek ship you pick to compare I'm more interested in how you all think the technology would stack up. Best way I can think to do this is to obviously backup your arguments with onscreen evidence, I'm gonna go so far as to say that events in books and other media count as canon for the sake of thIs discussion.

I'm posting this from my Phone right now so when I get home to a computer I will expand on this a little more.
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Offline Pleiades

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2012, 06:38:02 PM »
This is certainly problematic.

For example, even in basic principles, the cross compatibility is vastly terrible. I remember in 'The Outrageous Okona' that Worf was mortified that they were targeted:

Quote
"Captain, they are now locking lasers on us."
"Lasers!?"
"Yes, sir."
"Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?"

MEMORY ALPHA

Now, the problem here becomes thus: What is a Turbolaser? Would it even work against e-d?

But there is also this problem of 'raw energy'.

Lets throw a spanner into the works in terms of scale.

The largest logical cannon ship to use for example might be (excluding the Voth Citiy Ship) the Borg cube. Even this is immensely dwarved by the Executor Class Drednought in SW. Even a Borg cube has its limitations (shown against species 8472), would it even stand any such chance against all 3000+ weapons of the Executor?

The Scimitar, with its seemingly and often appaulingly called 'Uber capacity', could be not really called upon as such against the formentioned, even if we downgraded the situation to an Imperial Star Destroyer which has 60 XX-9 Turbolasers to start woth.

Also, further to the armament of the two, there is also the severe lack of fighters in ST as opposed to SW.

Anyway, that just some issues amongst the thousands....

I guess this is an argument of ever increasing circles and what we would be essientally need to be doing is say, comparing Wookiepedia against Memory Alpha. 




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Offline Admiral TVar

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2012, 05:27:20 AM »
Wll the trouble with Sw Turbolaser and laser cannons is they dont behave like lasers hence we must believe they are not our or Trek universes lasers but something else entirely maybe something akin to plasma weapons  and are just called Lasers in the SW universe. Im forced to give a SD an edge over any Fed ship in terms of shear firepower a Imperial Class SD is between 1200 and 1400 meters long thats about the same length as a Romulan Warbird  thusly twice the length of a Galaxy class. and as was stated the Sd is bristling with turbo lasers, ion cannons, and concussion missile launchers. however we have no idea how the SD shields would stand up against Phasers and Photon or quantum torpedoes and I would give a speed and maneuverability edge to any fed ship. ST impulse beats the pants off SW sublight engines and a fed ship can simply warp away at any second

Its really hard to say The Sd could overwhelm a fed ship with firepower if it can land the hits but a fed ship could probably overwhelm a SD with its own acurate weaponry take out shield generators and turrets and that nice big bridge tower...

its 50/50  two totally diff universes  IMHO that shouldnt really be  versused  hell why dont  we  E-D vs a Shadow Battle crab or  Vorlon Dreadnaught vs Species 8472 dreadnaught,  Defiant vs White Star   Battlestar vs  Stragate Prometheus.....
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Offline TNC

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2012, 09:48:28 AM »
The problem with any of these types of "debates" is that different sci-fi franchises have different technobable explanations for how stuff works.  Maybe if you had numbers for how much energy a phaser beam puts out or a Star Wars laser puts out vs. how much energy a Starfleet deflector shield could absorb or how much a Star Wars shield could take then you could make some sort of guess.  I'm not sure raw size would make that much of a difference, what would really matter is how much power either ship's reactor core would generate.  A big ass stardestroyer would have almost no maneuverability against just about any Trek ship besides something like the Voth City ship or the Planet Killer.  I don't know what kind of weapon arrangements star destroyers have but theoretically a Trek ship could just sit in the star destroyer's blind spot and just blast away all day and the sd wouldn't be able to out maneuver it (assuming they have a blind spot that is).

its 50/50  two totally diff universes  IMHO that shouldnt really be  versused  hell why dont  we  E-D vs a Shadow Battle crab or  Vorlon Dreadnaught vs Species 8472 dreadnaught,  Defiant vs White Star   Battlestar vs  Stragate Prometheus.....

And there in lies another problem with these arguments...  Babylon 5 ships (Shadow ship, Vorlon dreadnought, White Star) don't have shield technology while the E-D and Defiant do.  I'm not sure if Species 8472 has shields or just super awesome regenerating hulls though.  And we don't know how B5 weapons stack up against Trek weapons.  The same goes with a Battlestar vs. the BC-304 Prometheus.  Weaponry wise a Battlestar (at least NuBSG) would have the same kinds of weapons as the Prometheus  (kinetic energy weapons, nuclear missiles) but the Prometheus  has Asgard designed shield technology and I'm sure that that would be able to absorb most of a Battlestar's firepower.  The rub would be how powerful BSG's nukes are compared to the naquadah-enhanced warheads seen in Stargate.
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Offline Jimi James

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM »
The Enterprise-E wins, every contest.  Hands down, no evidence needed.
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Offline TNC

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 02:37:32 PM »
^Wrong.  SGU's Destiny  would totally kick the E-E's ass.  :P
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Offline Jimi James

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 03:01:31 PM »
No, you're wrong, cause like Quantum torpedoes and stuff.  And then the Borg show up and Destiny gets assimilated, and Picard is all Like, "I can hear hear them," which lets him find a crucial weakness in the nick of time.  Check and mate. 

Also, possibly time travel.
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Offline TNC

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 03:07:38 PM »
No, you're wrong, cause like Quantum torpedoes and stuff.  And then the Borg show up and Destiny gets assimilated, and Picard is all Like, "I can hear hear them," which lets him find a crucial weakness in the nick of time.  Check and mate. 

LOL.

The Borg assimilating that CMBR signal and learning the meaning of the universe and everything would suck...

Wait a minute, that gives me an idea...  CROSSOVER FAN-FIC TIME!!!
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Offline Razor

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2012, 08:20:56 PM »
A Stardestroyer because its turbolasers have a yeild of 5000 gigatons and it has 20 a hull 20 meters thick made of pure neutronium.
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Offline The Unbound

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2012, 07:05:08 PM »
Wait a minute, that gives me an idea...  CROSSOVER FAN-FIC TIME!!!

I remember where to find one of those. Here.
Steady on.

Offline slash78

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2012, 12:58:10 AM »
The only Star Trek vs Star Wars I believe in....

Hmmm, what should I watch tonight, TUC or ESB?

Offline NRSD Moonshadow

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 11:13:17 PM »
Too much Trek Fanboyism with the strength differences, but overall seems to be an interesting story.
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Offline slash78

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2012, 03:32:46 PM »
Star Trek is nearly dead.  Only thing keeping it going is Paramount's need for money and a Star Wars Fanboy directer doing a reboot/alternate timeline thing.

Star Wars got a new lease on life no that Disney has it and wants to make that $4 billion investment back.  It will probably take more then three movies to do that. 

Offline The Unbound

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 07:27:29 AM »
Oh, it's worse than that. Ever since Universe got cancelled, there has been barely a single proper sci-fi show anywhere. In this day and age, the pre-eminent producer of sci-fi tv is BBC Wales.

The future is a strange place.
Steady on.

Offline Edymnion

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 10:49:41 AM »
Back on topic:

It depends a *LOT* on one thing, range.

I've seen breakdowns where people have calculated the rough energy output of star destroyer turbo-lasers to be in the 250 terrawatt range (mainly from the scene of them vaporizing 20+ meter asteroids in one shot).  We know the Ent-D shields would crumple at a single 8 gigawatt blast.  Clearly the shields of a Galaxy Class would be no match for a full out turbo-laser assault.

And yes, the SDs have shields (the two testicles on top of them are the shield generators), so we'll assume those shields will block the transporter, so no easy out there.

However, we have also seen that glorified stunt fighters (A and X Wings) are capable of taking out the shield generators with their blasters.  We also know that if you take out a SD's bridge (which is conveniently located in a very prominent and obvious place) that the entire ship goes down.

So the question becomes who has the longer range?  The Enterprise can't withstand a turbo-laser assault, but the SD can't survive a pintpoint strike against it's shield generators and bridge (while the Enterprise does have a backup bridge).  Basically whoever shoots first, wins.

Honestly, I would still have to give it to the Enterprise for one reason.  The Enterprise can fight at warp, while SW ships are limited to sub-light combat.  I don't think the SD can target something moving that fast, mainly because when we see heavy guns being used in SW, they are being manually fired.  The Ent could simply strafe by at warp speed, unload a photon torpedo barrage at the shield generators/bridge, and be out of range again before the SD even knew what hit them.

Offline Xero

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2013, 12:01:13 PM »
The photon torpedoes the E-D used, had a range of 300,000 km, with yield of 200 isotons (about 64 megatons). We've seen high yield warheads to some nasty damage to unshielded Borg Cubes. Imagine what a full spread would do to a Star Destroyer. That would really mess their day up.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 12:03:41 PM by Xero »
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Offline Stoo

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 05:54:55 AM »
Isoton isn't a real unit...the "iso" prefix is kind of meaningless here, it means "same-as", not a mulitplier like kilo or mega. Where are you getting that conversion from?

(also a torpedo should probably 1-hit kill any unshielded target that doesn't have serious plot armour, heh.)

Offline The Unbound

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 06:29:20 AM »
Indeed. Back in the day before shield failure became a normal part of the Trek battle scene, about early-to-mid TNG, they used to worry about the ship getting destroyed if a torpedo went off nearby while the shields were down.
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Offline Xero

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 10:00:09 AM »
Isoton isn't a real unit...the "iso" prefix is kind of meaningless here, it means "same-as", not a mulitplier like kilo or mega. Where are you getting that conversion from?

(also a torpedo should probably 1-hit kill any unshielded target that doesn't have serious plot armour, heh.)

I know "Isoton" is not a real unit. But it's all they go by in the series.

It was also stated that 25 isoton photon torpedo explosion could destroy an entire city in "Living Witness". According to "Scorpion" 200 isotons was the yield of a class 6 photon torpedo. So going by that, you you can do a rough estimate of a photon's yield. I forget where I go the 64 megaton thing from.

Then there's Quantum Torpedoes, which we know next to nothing about, other than they are some kind of plasma weapon.
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Offline Jimi James

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 12:10:05 PM »
I've seen that Isoton to Megaton conversion online for years and never understood where it came from exactly, particularly given the fact isoton is made up.  It always pops up though in these versus discussions.  Personally I think it may have originated with some Star Wars fans and certain visual examples of the destructive force of a photon torpedo.

And Quantum torpedoes aren't plasma weapons.  The quantum torpedo operates as a limited zero-point energy generator, powered by an upgraded photon torpedo warhead, stated to be 21 isotons in the ds9 TM.  The quantum torpedo produces an energy release measuring roughly 50 isotons.
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Offline Xero

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 12:47:12 PM »
That's the thing about Quantum Torpedoes, the only thing we ever heard about them in the series that that they have a plasma warhead.
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Offline Jimi James

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 11:28:27 AM »
Well that doesn't make any sense at all.  It's like they're making this stuff up as they go along.
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Offline Flagg

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2013, 01:56:21 PM »
I've seen that Isoton to Megaton conversion online for years and never understood where it came from exactly, particularly given the fact isoton is made up.  It always pops up though in these versus discussions.  Personally I think it may have originated with some Star Wars fans and certain visual examples of the destructive force of a photon torpedo.

And Quantum torpedoes aren't plasma weapons.  The quantum torpedo operates as a limited zero-point energy generator, powered by an upgraded photon torpedo warhead, stated to be 21 isotons in the ds9 TM.  The quantum torpedo produces an energy release measuring roughly 50 isotons.

Too bad none of that is actually canon and the QT explosions we've actually seen show them as about as powerful as modern conventional explosions.

Offline Admiral TVar

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2013, 07:17:11 AM »
supposedly torps have a very refined shape-charge warhead that directs almost all the energy at the target which would explain why when we see them hit the shields they appear to have a blast no more than a amraam missile...  but we have also seen episodes where crew complain about how close the target is when the captain orders torps to be fired   "Sir at this range we could be destroyed to"    its all so inconsistent...
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Offline Flagg

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Re: Star Trek vs Star Wars... Keep it clean people...
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2013, 08:00:58 AM »
Yeah, we really can't rely on dialogue. Frankly the vs debate is kinda pointless with ST canon being only what's on film and TV while SW has mountains of overinflated giggatonne turbolasers set as canon in myriad of EU (despite rarely ever seeing them in use and being somewhat undermined by the Clone Wars series). But Leeland Chee will always say "go to the ICS for firepower, it's canon".