Author Topic: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked  (Read 2186 times)

Offline Edymnion

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Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« on: May 14, 2013, 08:39:28 PM »
Came up in another thread where it wasn't appropriate to elaborate, so figured I'd start a new one to elaborate.

Now, I liked Batman Begins.  It was a good movie.  Its not the gritty remake part I don't like, its the poor character adaptions and gaping plot holes in especially the last two that I don't like.

Dark Knight:
1) The Joker.  Oh everybody goes on about how great Heath Ledger was, and while I will agree he played the part well, it was how they cast the Joker that I disagreed with.  If I had to point to only one adaption of the Joker and say "Him, thats him.  That is the Joker", it would be Mark Hamill's.  Coming in second would be, goofy and campy as it was, Cesar Romero's.  You see, I like the Joker as being the Clown Prince of Crime.  If he isn't laughing and cackling like a madman, its just not the Joker.  Ledger's version was too low key, too reserved, and frankly just too damned sane to be the Joker.  This simply isn't a villain you should do if you don't plan to go all the way with him.  What we got in Dark Knight was just some nutcase in facepaint that came up with a new story about how he got the scars every time he mentioned them (which was entirely too frequently, it just got repetitive listening to him pull yet another story out of his butt).

2) Too much science fiction.  Batman has great toys, I get it.  Thing is, for a gritty reboot, Batman Begins at least made sure that the stuff he had was grounded in reality.  You could almost believe that this was possible.  Dark Knight though?  Oh joy, we've got 3D bat-sonar through cell phones, we've got electric memory cloth glider cape, we just had gadget after gadget that simply don't and can't work in the real world.  And no, "its Batman" or "its a comic book movie" is not justification for it when the entire premise of the reboot was to make it realistic.

3) Wasted villains.  This one goes for both sequels (although they pulled it off well in the first one), but I'll list it here.  I don't know why every blasted Batman movie has to have multiple villains (well, I know why, because of Catwoman and Penguin working so well the first time around), but this one was particularly bad.  You could have cut Two-Face out of the movie entirely and it wouldn't have changed a darned thing.  Not only has Joker been reduced to some nutcase in face paint, but they bring in a heavy hitter like Two-Face more than half way through just to off him a short while later.

Dark Knight Rises:
1) How is Batman walking?  I mean, I was excited at the start of this thing because it was showing what would actually happen to a man who tried to be Batman.  Within a couple of years his body would be so utterly destroyed by the constant abuse that you wouldn't be able to move.  The doctor flat out says he has no cartilage left in his knees.  Then he puts on some powered bat-armor that lets him move easier, I can live with that.  Except that when he gets his back broken and thrown down a hole with no bat-suit.  Even aside from the questionable at best excuse that he just slipped a disk and was able to recover from that down there, it wouldn't rebuild his cartilage.  All the best medicine money could buy couldn't do that, which is why he needed the bat-armor.  Except that now he's jumping chasms like a rabbit, how the hell did his knees miraculous repair themselves?  Through the miracle of low budget chiropracty?

2) Bane.  Much like the Joker above, I don't know what that was on screen, but it wasn't Bane.  Sure he's a big strong guy, but at that point he might as well had some scales on him and been Killer Croc.  Like the Joker, Bane is not a character you do half way.

3) Alfred abandons Bruce.  No, uh uh.  I don't care how bad it gets, but Alfred does not walk out on Bruce.  Its Alfred, abandoning Bruce in his hour of need.  Thats the second worst "do you even know anything about the characters you're writing for?" moment in the movie, we'll get to the first in a bit.

4) Bruce and Talia.  Okay, Talia is in disguise early on, thats fine.  Except when she's naked and bouncing on Bruce and the camera clearly shows that she's got a tattoo or a brand of the League of Shadows on her.  Bruce spent YEARS training with that organization, and was almost a full fledged member.  He would have known what that symbol meant, but he's still surprised at who she is?  I mean, I could buy him not realizing it was Talia, but not realizing she's a LoS agent?  Its like Senator McCarthy seeing someone with a sickle and hammer tattoo and not realizing the person might be Russian.

5) All of Gotham's police are in the sewer?  Okay, lets assume they really were stupid enough to send every last cop down into the sewers, and that for some reason in all those months none of them managed to dig their way out.  You've got a bunch of people confined to a small area virtually in the dark for months.  How in the world are they strong enough to come charging out at the end of the movie?  Not like they had a gym down there, or even room to run laps.  These guys were barely managing to not starve to death thanks to people slipping them food, and this went on for months.  Most of these guys should have needed stretchers to get out of there on.

6) Where was... the entire rest of the world?  I mean, even if we assume that this Batman is literally the only super-hero in the world (no Superman, no Green Lantern, no anybody else in the DC Universe), where was the US military?  You get somebody holding a city ransom with the threat of a nuke and letting millions of people go feral, and *NOBODY* responded to that?  Governments do not work that way, you have one guy threaten a nuke and take control of one of the largest, most densely populated cities in the country, for months, and nobody did anything to stop him?

7) Wasting time.  Towards the end, Batman is back in town, somehow.  He walked out of that hole as Bruce Wayne, one of the richest and most influential men on the planet that was recently feared dead in what was possibly the biggest terrorist attack in world history that was STILL GOING ON, and yet he managed to get all the way back to the US with no money apparently without anyone ever realizing who he was (remember, worldwide ninja assassins that watch everything?).  And when he gets to Gotham they keep drumming how the nuke is going to go off very soon and that every minute counts, yet he stops to spend probably half the day squirting lighter fluid on the bridge just so he can warn the hyper-competent ninjas that he's back in town?

8 ) The gravest sin of all, the one that proved to me that they had no respect at all for the property they were dealing with (even after ruining the Joker and Bane), Batman fakes his own death and hangs up the cowl to run away to Paris to bang Catwoman.  Leaving Gotham completely undefended.  Batman does not give up, he does not walk away, he does not quit.  This Batman faked his own death just so he could go live in France.  What the hell?  And no, there is no real indication that anyone ever intended Robin to become the next Batman.  Nobody told him what was going on, its only that he managed to stumble into the Batcave at the end all by himself that it even comes up.  Even then, Bruce spent years training with the greatest ninjas and assassins in the world to be good enough to be Batman, and had the Wayne fortune to back him up.  This guy has nothing but whatever backup suits and gear is in the Bat Cave, assuming he can figure out how to use any of it and assuming he doesn't get killed the first time he tries to go out in any of it.

They were internally inconsistent, they were inconsistent between themselves, they managed to screw up iconic Batman villains to the point that had they not slapped makeup on them they wouldn't have been recognizable, and they gutted the core traits that actually make Batman Batman.  These movies sucked.  They were nothing but mindless eye candy that immediately abandoned the idea of being a realistic and gritty reboot and jumped straight back into having all sorts of high tech gadgets, except where those gadgets would actually be used to keep the villains more correct.  Batman gets top secret military hovering ships, but Bane doesn't even get to shoot up on steroids?

That wasn't Bane, that wasn't the Joker, and that wasn't Batman.

Offline Xero

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:01 PM »
You do realize Flagg is about to tear this whole troll post apart, like a werewolf with a teenager?
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Offline TNC

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 09:36:40 PM »
Um...  The electric memory glider cape was in the first movie too...
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Offline Razor

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 02:13:22 AM »
Quote
8 ) The gravest sin of all, the one that proved to me that they had no respect at all for the property they were dealing with (even after ruining the Joker and Bane), Batman fakes his own death and hangs up the cowl to run away to Paris to bang Catwoman.  Leaving Gotham completely undefended.  Batman does not give up, he does not walk away, he does not quit.  

Umm you saw Batman Beyond right? I know you did you have it in your avatar.  Do you remember the pilot episode where Batman stops being Batman?  Not only that but he lets a younger character take on the cowl in the very same show...just like in DKR.

Quote
You do realize Flagg is about to tear this whole troll post apart, like a werewolf with a teenager?

Or like you with Tim Hortons.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 02:15:28 AM by Razor »
“The boat dipped and swayed and sometimes took on water, but it did not sink; the two brothers had waterproofed it well. I do not know where it finally fetched up, if it ever did; perhaps it reached the sea and sails there forever, like a magic boat in a fairytale. All I know is that it was still afloat and still running on the breast of the flood when it passed the incorporated town limits of Derry, Maine, and there it passes out of this tale forever.” ― Stephen King, It"
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Offline Xero

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 04:47:40 AM »
Quote
8 ) The gravest sin of all, the one that proved to me that they had no respect at all for the property they were dealing with (even after ruining the Joker and Bane), Batman fakes his own death and hangs up the cowl to run away to Paris to bang Catwoman.  Leaving Gotham completely undefended.  Batman does not give up, he does not walk away, he does not quit.  

Umm you saw Batman Beyond right? I know you did you have it in your avatar.  Do you remember the pilot episode where Batman stops being Batman?  Not only that but he lets a younger character take on the cowl in the very same show...just like in DKR.


Not only that, but the newer younger Batman was Bruce Wayne's son, one he created by using Science-Rape(tm), on an unsuspecting woman. Though, I'm unsure if it was legitimate rape, since she had the baby.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 04:49:38 AM by Xero »
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Offline Razor

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 05:01:43 AM »
^^Actually that was Amanda Waller not Bruce Wayne.
“The boat dipped and swayed and sometimes took on water, but it did not sink; the two brothers had waterproofed it well. I do not know where it finally fetched up, if it ever did; perhaps it reached the sea and sails there forever, like a magic boat in a fairytale. All I know is that it was still afloat and still running on the breast of the flood when it passed the incorporated town limits of Derry, Maine, and there it passes out of this tale forever.” ― Stephen King, It"
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Offline Xero

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 05:07:05 AM »
^^Actually that was Amanda Waller not Bruce Wayne.

Are you sure?
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Offline Razor

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 05:33:43 AM »
You know I was gonna wait for Flagg or Bond to do this and Im sure they can do this better than me, but Im in a really bad mood...

Point 1: You're aware that there are many different ways to interperate the Joker?  In the stories from the 40's he was psychopath with a clown motif but in the 50's and 60's he was more of a goofy trixter.  Now like you I think Hamill's version is the best (though John Dimaggio and Brent Spiner gave him a run for his money) but he (nor Nicholson's) wouldn't really work for this universe.  This is just another interpretation of the character.

Quote
If he isn't laughing and cackling like a madman, its just not the Joker.


He did laugh and cackle like a madman.

Quote
What we got in Dark Knight was just some nutcase in facepaint

The Character is normally a nutface with bleached skin whats the problem.

Quote
that came up with a new story about how he got the scars every time he mentioned them

You're aware that the multiple origin choice origin story is part of the Joker's mythology in the comics right.

Point 2: So you're okay with the microwave weapon that can vaporize a city's water supply but not the water in a human body but a bat sonar is outlandish?

Point 3: So you think that  Two-face got wasted in DK but Scarecrow got plenty of screentime in BB.  I dont think the story was meant to be about Two-Face per say but more about Harvey Dent and his fall from grace.

DKR

Point 1: You answered you're own question he used the brace.

Point 2: So you wanted a guy who gets a steroid and grows twice as tall and becomes a berzerker?  Bane was created for the same reason Doomsday was created he was practically a walking plot device to do the Knightfall storyline.  They pretty much used the original character as a base and did their own take on it.  Once again there are many ways to do a character the steroid freak wou;dn't have worked for the nolanverse.

Point 3: Alfred didnt abandon him per say he just could not follow him down that suicidal path.

Point 4: This is really a nitpick but I would say she could have gotten the scar from anywhere.  Its not a real prominent nor unique scar.

Point 5: All the cops weren't down there remember some managed to stay up.  Most of the others were rounded up and tossed into the sewers.  It looks to me like they were given plenty of food and the sewers weren't that cramped that they couldnt excercise or anything.

Point 6: Seriously did you even see the movie or did you just read a synopsis!? The army was there they were gaurding the bridges! They didnt want to go storming into the city as they didnt know who had the trigger to the bomb and didnt want to kill a couple of million people.  The mercs had them by the balls.

Point 7: Again a nitpick how do you know the league had him under observation.  Why does it matter how he got back to Gotham.

And I already addressed point 8.

Quote
Are you sure?

Yep watch the episode again Waller was the one who wanted a new batman because Bruce was getting on in years.
“The boat dipped and swayed and sometimes took on water, but it did not sink; the two brothers had waterproofed it well. I do not know where it finally fetched up, if it ever did; perhaps it reached the sea and sails there forever, like a magic boat in a fairytale. All I know is that it was still afloat and still running on the breast of the flood when it passed the incorporated town limits of Derry, Maine, and there it passes out of this tale forever.” ― Stephen King, It"
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Offline Edymnion

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 07:58:43 AM »
Umm you saw Batman Beyond right? I know you did you have it in your avatar.  Do you remember the pilot episode where Batman stops being Batman?  Not only that but he lets a younger character take on the cowl in the very same show...just like in DKR.
You mean when he has a heart attack in the middle of a bust and is forced to use a gun to get out, where he realizes that he is physically incapable of preforming the job anymore?  And how he still kept everything and when he found someone who could handle it started teaching the new guy everything he knew?

Yeah, because thats exactly the same as flying off to Paris to live happily ever after with Catwoman and leaving all the gear behind for random strangers to find.

Offline Razor

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 08:55:02 AM »
Yes he still quit being batman, the circumstances are irrelevant.
“The boat dipped and swayed and sometimes took on water, but it did not sink; the two brothers had waterproofed it well. I do not know where it finally fetched up, if it ever did; perhaps it reached the sea and sails there forever, like a magic boat in a fairytale. All I know is that it was still afloat and still running on the breast of the flood when it passed the incorporated town limits of Derry, Maine, and there it passes out of this tale forever.” ― Stephen King, It"
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Offline Flagg

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 11:21:33 AM »
God forbid they try to break away from stupid comic books where batman is determined to keep up his unending crusade to punch every criminal in Gotham.

Offline Razor

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 08:23:05 PM »
^^^No the status-quo must be maintained!!!!

Also he had stopped being Batman 8 years before DKR remember his body gave out.  The whole incident was one final hurrah to stop Bane and the League of Shadows.  He stopped because he couldn't keep doing it.
“The boat dipped and swayed and sometimes took on water, but it did not sink; the two brothers had waterproofed it well. I do not know where it finally fetched up, if it ever did; perhaps it reached the sea and sails there forever, like a magic boat in a fairytale. All I know is that it was still afloat and still running on the breast of the flood when it passed the incorporated town limits of Derry, Maine, and there it passes out of this tale forever.” ― Stephen King, It"
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Offline Jimi James

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 10:27:41 PM »
Which actually makes a lot of sense, given the wear and tear his body would likely take after an extended of period of crime fighting.  He's sort of like a pro-athlete, trying to play as much as he can before the physical stress of the game eventually causes his body to give out.  Talk about being grounded in reality.  That makes everything all the more real, because it forces Bruce and the audience to realize that he's actually human.  He's not some mutant or alien sent to Earth.  He's just a man, granted highly committed, well trained, and well funded, but an ordinary man nonetheless.  To me, that's what's always made Batman so cool and Nolan's trilogy used that perfectly by making him flawed.

I was disappointed by the ending of DKR, not because he quit being batman or faked his death, but because the scene in Paris showing him alive with Selina felt like it robbed his final sacrifice of the weight that had been built up.  I was practically crying when he was flying away to his death and if it had ended there or even been ambiguous like Inception, I would have loved it.  Instead, he pops up in Paris and its like psych!  I'm still alive.  It felt like it cheapened his overall journey, particularly given everything that happened in TDK with Harvey and the theme of dieing a hero or living long enough to become a villain.  I felt Bruce was on a similar journey and having him actually die to save Gotham would have been a fitting end.  Letting him live, felt like the went for the easy happy ending.
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Offline Flagg

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Re: Why Dark Knight and Dark Knight Rises Sucked
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 01:02:07 AM »
Which actually makes a lot of sense, given the wear and tear his body would likely take after an extended of period of crime fighting.  He's sort of like a pro-athlete, trying to play as much as he can before the physical stress of the game eventually causes his body to give out.  Talk about being grounded in reality.  That makes everything all the more real, because it forces Bruce and the audience to realize that he's actually human.  He's not some mutant or alien sent to Earth.  He's just a man, granted highly committed, well trained, and well funded, but an ordinary man nonetheless.  To me, that's what's always made Batman so cool and Nolan's trilogy used that perfectly by making him flawed.

I was disappointed by the ending of DKR, not because he quit being batman or faked his death, but because the scene in Paris showing him alive with Selina felt like it robbed his final sacrifice of the weight that had been built up.  I was practically crying when he was flying away to his death and if it had ended there or even been ambiguous like Inception, I would have loved it.  Instead, he pops up in Paris and its like psych!  I'm still alive.  It felt like it cheapened his overall journey, particularly given everything that happened in TDK with Harvey and the theme of dieing a hero or living long enough to become a villain.  I felt Bruce was on a similar journey and having him actually die to save Gotham would have been a fitting end.  Letting him live, felt like the went for the easy happy ending.
The scene in Paris was totally necessary, dude. He finally moved on like Blake never could. This is signified by the fact that Selina was wearing his mothers pearls. He no longer needed batman.