Author Topic: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359  (Read 1404 times)

Offline Jimi James

  • So Say We All
  • Administrator
  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 9,322
  • Abandon Ship
    • View Profile
    • The New Haven Chronicles
Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« on: July 07, 2016, 05:54:58 PM »
So I was watching the Star Wars Rouge One trailer and got the idea that it would be cool if Star Trek did the same thing, going back to show things only mentioned or seen briefly throughout the ST past.

So when thinking about it and writing down some ideas for a possible story I might get to, I started thinking about Wolf 359. The story would show the battle specifically from the vantage point of several ships that were present, with Admiral Hansen making several appearances and featuring a cameo by the ENt-D and Picard at the end.

The part I'm wondering about specifically, are which ship/ships to focus on and what to do about the numerous kitbashes that were created likely for budgetary reasons. Should continuity be maintained exactly as it is, or because of the CGI available now, should the kitbashes be replaced with more widely accepted canon ships (Lakota excelsior variants, Miranda variants, Ambassador class, later version Nebula's with the various pods, and other canon TNG classes, maybe even another Galaxy Class), while keeping the names/registry?

Thoughts?

Personally, I think this is similar to what they did with the remastered ToS. Why not replace older kitbashes with newer, more detailed CGI models.
https://www.patreon.com/JonMichaelMay
Help me make art, by joining me on Patreon. Various subscriptions tiers are in place, allowing you to support my addictive art habit for as little as $1 a month.

Online Fiery Little One

  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,794
  • Live Long and Prosper
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2016, 06:12:36 PM »
Well, they kind of did do that already with the USS Melbourne. In TNG she was a Nebula-class ship, but when DS9 revisited the battle during the pilot, she got changed to an Excelsior-class.
Open your mind to new possibilities
-Trip(sort of), The Crossing

Offline Razor

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 15,820
  • All things not of this world
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2016, 03:12:03 AM »
Its an interesting idea "Wolf 359: A Star Trek story".  If memory serves me its fanon the the starship Endeavor survived the battle and Bond once speculated that there was a running fight between the Endeavor that was rescuing survivors from stranded ships and a Borg sphere that was capturing them.  That wold make an interesting sequence.

Quote
The part I'm wondering about specifically, are which ship/ships to focus on and what to do about the numerous kitbashes that were created likely for budgetary reasons. Should continuity be maintained exactly as it is, or because of the CGI available now, should the kitbashes be replaced with more widely accepted canon ships (Lakota excelsior variants, Miranda variants, Ambassador class, later version Nebula's with the various pods, and other canon TNG classes, maybe even another Galaxy Class), while keeping the names/registry?

Thoughts?

Besides a couple of exceptions I despise the kitbashes and Frankenstein fleet so I'd be all for replacing them.
“The boat dipped and swayed and sometimes took on water, but it did not sink; the two brothers had waterproofed it well. I do not know where it finally fetched up, if it ever did; perhaps it reached the sea and sails there forever, like a magic boat in a fairytale. All I know is that it was still afloat and still running on the breast of the flood when it passed the incorporated town limits of Derry, Maine, and there it passes out of this tale forever.” ― Stephen King, It"
High priest in the Cult of J

Offline TNC

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 10,651
  • Stuck in the middle of nowhere...
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2016, 04:50:17 PM »
I, for one, like most of the Wolf 359 Kitbashes, (the Frankenstein Fleet... not so much) so I wouldn't like them just changed to other ship classes.  That said, I'm not against modifications to some of them.  For example the ones that had markers for nacelles could be tweeked so the nacelles look better/less like markers, maybe add a pod sort of thing/hangar deck to the Freedom-class as a nod to the Kelvin from Trek '09 (or not since that's one I'm ambivalent towards).  At least keep the Springfield, Cheyenne, and New Orleans-classes.
“Battle is not a simulation. It’s blood and screams and funerals.” – Capt. Georgiou – Star Trek: Discovery – “The Vulcan Hello”

Offline Jimi James

  • So Say We All
  • Administrator
  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 9,322
  • Abandon Ship
    • View Profile
    • The New Haven Chronicles
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2016, 06:58:58 PM »
Yeah, I would keep the  Springfield, Cheyenne, and New Orleans-classes, but have completely new CGI models made so that the details line up more with the details present on the Galaxy and Nebula.

While there are a few ships in the Frankenstein Fleet I like, such as the Centaur because it actually makes sense somewhat, and the Raging Queen, simply because it's so ridiculous, I tend to lean more towards getting rid of the kitbashes, keeping their names and either replacing them with more recognizable canon ships or creating entirely new classes.
https://www.patreon.com/JonMichaelMay
Help me make art, by joining me on Patreon. Various subscriptions tiers are in place, allowing you to support my addictive art habit for as little as $1 a month.

Offline Xero

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,583
  • Let the big man do his job.
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2016, 01:24:27 AM »
I think using the kitbashes would keep continuity, but it would also be a good opportunity to show them in more detail. Also IIRC Hansen's ship was supposed to be a Galaxy class, it would be nice to see that. They can show that transport that got caught in the battle.

It would also be nice to see the reaction to the loss at Starfleet command.

Now I wish they would do a web series, featuring key moments that we have heard of but never seen.

20 minute episodes. Things like Wolf 359, the E-C at Narendra III, etc. Imagine seeing first contact with the a planet that would end up being part of the Federation, like Betazed.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 01:28:28 AM by Xero »
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Online Fiery Little One

  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,794
  • Live Long and Prosper
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2016, 02:19:11 AM »
I think using the kitbashes would keep continuity, but it would also be a good opportunity to show them in more detail. Also IIRC Hansen's ship was supposed to be a Galaxy class, it would be nice to see that. They can show that transport that got caught in the battle.

It would also be nice to see the reaction to the loss at Starfleet command.

Now I wish they would do a web series, featuring key moments that we have heard of but never seen.

20 minute episodes. Things like Wolf 359, the E-C at Narendra III, etc. Imagine seeing first contact with the a planet that would end up being part of the Federation, like Betazed.

Huh... I was under the impression it was a Constitution (~2270s). Any time I've watched that episode I've looked behind the Admiral during his call to the Enterprise during the battle. The displays matched that style significantly more than anything we'd see on a Galaxy or any 24th century Federation ship for that matter.
Open your mind to new possibilities
-Trip(sort of), The Crossing

Offline CX

  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 9,682
  • Bully!
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2016, 07:21:52 AM »
I thought it was an Excelsior class ship
"Black care rarely sits behind a rider whose pace is fast enough." - TR


Offline Xero

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 11,583
  • Let the big man do his job.
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2016, 11:54:23 AM »
I think using the kitbashes would keep continuity, but it would also be a good opportunity to show them in more detail. Also IIRC Hansen's ship was supposed to be a Galaxy class, it would be nice to see that. They can show that transport that got caught in the battle.

It would also be nice to see the reaction to the loss at Starfleet command.

Now I wish they would do a web series, featuring key moments that we have heard of but never seen.

20 minute episodes. Things like Wolf 359, the E-C at Narendra III, etc. Imagine seeing first contact with the a planet that would end up being part of the Federation, like Betazed.

Huh... I was under the impression it was a Constitution (~2270s). Any time I've watched that episode I've looked behind the Admiral during his call to the Enterprise during the battle. The displays matched that style significantly more than anything we'd see on a Galaxy or any 24th century Federation ship for that matter.

They used the E's battle bridge set for Hanson's ship's bridge. In the script it was supposed to be a Galaxy.

That mean the E-D probably had three sister ships, and not two. Interesting.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 12:01:30 PM by Xero »
"Well Steve, I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it." - Bill Gate's response to Steve Jobs' accusation of theft.

Online Fiery Little One

  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,794
  • Live Long and Prosper
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2016, 01:33:15 PM »
Ah. Fair enough then.

As for this idea... Consult what you think you need to and then go from there.
Open your mind to new possibilities
-Trip(sort of), The Crossing

Offline TNC

  • Board Legend
  • Posts: 10,651
  • Stuck in the middle of nowhere...
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2016, 01:44:54 PM »
IIRC at one point the Enterprise talked to Hanson during the battle and in the background you could see the TMP-era "Red Alert" notifications on the screens, which would point to an older ship.  On the other hand, having a Galaxy around would be nice as we could see the saucer separation sequence (or already have it separated when the battle started), perhaps even have the saucer fighting too and using its supposed aft torpedo tube.  IIRC there were something like 6 Galaxies in the original production run.  Bridge modules are supposed to be changeable so maybe Hanson liked the older designs and put one the ship he used.

A final thought regarding the Frankenstein fleet, the Centaur and Raging Queen/Curry were the only ones shown in any detail so keeping them is fine (and I happen to like them, the Centaur more than the other two though I used the Curry's as support ships in my fan-fic).  The others were only shown as background ships at DS9 and we never got a good look at them in the show (well at least the Yeager).  So those could be replaced with no real "effect" to continuity, its basically like replacing the glowing lights on TOS with an actual design.  I guess the easiest thing to do in the case of the Yeager would be replace it with an actual Intrepid-class.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 01:46:54 PM by TNC »
“Battle is not a simulation. It’s blood and screams and funerals.” – Capt. Georgiou – Star Trek: Discovery – “The Vulcan Hello”

Offline Jimi James

  • So Say We All
  • Administrator
  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 9,322
  • Abandon Ship
    • View Profile
    • The New Haven Chronicles
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2016, 12:12:24 PM »
The most interesting part to me, isn't the battle, which to me by all accounts, doesn't last that long. I have a few ideas of how to stretch it out longer than what we saw in Emissary while maintaining the overall info we know and general idea. The lead up to the battle and fallout are far more interesting I think. Imagine being on a ship that arrived early to Wolf 359 and so you're just waiting for the Borg to arrive.
Also, you can imagine that some ships, like the Enterprise, didn't make it to the Wolf system in time.
So I want to explore all that in greater detail.

Retconning a few things.
Putting the mushroom Starbase One, back in earth orbit and showing much more traffic around Earth, which has always bothered me. It's the capital, even during a crisis there should be more traffic around Earth.
Increasing the number of automated perimeter defense craft.
I'll have to go back and look, but did the cube actually pass by Mars and if so what was it like being at Utopia Planitia and watching the cube go by, and being able to do nothing.

The 6 Galaxy class ships detail is from the TNG tech manual. I looked it up the other day. Starfleet built or had the order for six Galaxy class ships, with an additional 12 planned, should Starfleet need/want them. Given how many we saw during the Dominion war, it's safe to assume they built quite a few more than the 18 they started with. No doubt Shelby's efforts to rebuild the fleet, yielded an order for more Galaxy class ships, plus the rush construction of all the new designs we saw in First Contact, including the Defiant and the Sovereign....possibly the Intrepid as well.

As far as Hanson's ship, it was probably the same Excelsior class ship that he traveled aboard earlier in the episode, when he brings Shelby to the Enterprise. If that was his personal transport/command ship than it's a fair bet that he commanded the fleet from that Excelsior instead of transferring his flag to another ship.
https://www.patreon.com/JonMichaelMay
Help me make art, by joining me on Patreon. Various subscriptions tiers are in place, allowing you to support my addictive art habit for as little as $1 a month.

Online Fiery Little One

  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 7,794
  • Live Long and Prosper
    • View Profile
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 02:30:16 PM »
The most interesting part to me, isn't the battle, which to me by all accounts, doesn't last that long. I have a few ideas of how to stretch it out longer than what we saw in Emissary while maintaining the overall info we know and general idea. The lead up to the battle and fallout are far more interesting I think. Imagine being on a ship that arrived early to Wolf 359 and so you're just waiting for the Borg to arrive.
Also, you can imagine that some ships, like the Enterprise, didn't make it to the Wolf system in time.
So I want to explore all that in greater detail.

Retconning a few things.
Putting the mushroom Starbase One, back in earth orbit and showing much more traffic around Earth, which has always bothered me. It's the capital, even during a crisis there should be more traffic around Earth.
Increasing the number of automated perimeter defense craft.
I'll have to go back and look, but did the cube actually pass by Mars and if so what was it like being at Utopia Planitia and watching the cube go by, and being able to do nothing.


The 6 Galaxy class ships detail is from the TNG tech manual. I looked it up the other day. Starfleet built or had the order for six Galaxy class ships, with an additional 12 planned, should Starfleet need/want them. Given how many we saw during the Dominion war, it's safe to assume they built quite a few more than the 18 they started with. No doubt Shelby's efforts to rebuild the fleet, yielded an order for more Galaxy class ships, plus the rush construction of all the new designs we saw in First Contact, including the Defiant and the Sovereign....possibly the Intrepid as well.

As far as Hanson's ship, it was probably the same Excelsior class ship that he traveled aboard earlier in the episode, when he brings Shelby to the Enterprise. If that was his personal transport/command ship than it's a fair bet that he commanded the fleet from that Excelsior instead of transferring his flag to another ship.

I just took a quick look at the article on the Mars Defense Perimeter and the screenap they used show what appeared to be Mars in the background with 3 pods. There was also a note at the bottom of the article indicating an alternative version of that bit with 9 pods. Why they junked the other 6 I have no idea except, perhaps, for tech limits back then.
Open your mind to new possibilities
-Trip(sort of), The Crossing

Offline Jimi James

  • So Say We All
  • Administrator
  • Distinguished Member
  • Posts: 9,322
  • Abandon Ship
    • View Profile
    • The New Haven Chronicles
Re: Question/thoughts about Wolf 359
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 03:00:44 PM »
Thanks.

It's possibly either tech, budget, or time reasons. Either way, a more substantial perimeter force should have been present, even if its sole purpose is to be shown getting obliterated.
https://www.patreon.com/JonMichaelMay
Help me make art, by joining me on Patreon. Various subscriptions tiers are in place, allowing you to support my addictive art habit for as little as $1 a month.